Re: My GWorkspace feature request

[MJ Ray]

On 2003-06-23 22:40:32 +0100 Philippe C.D. Robert 
<philippe.robert@gmx.net> wrote:
> my last post to this thread, I swear ...:-)

Do you finally understand?

[...]
> You cannot, you should not, it would be just wrong. The name 
> "contextual" implies that the menu can only be used within a certain 
> context. Do not mix detached menus with contextual menus here, they 
> are not the same.

Argh!  You're the one who started comparisons about the relative 
visibility of submenus and context menus, saying that context menus 
were no more hidden than submenus!

> > Huh?  Surely you have to select it and then activate the menu, else 
> > it
> > would break the concept of "targeted actions"...
> You point-click an object to show the menu, this is one user action 
> and does not break any concept.

If you are able to act on an object while others are selected, this 
would break consistency of targeted actions, IMO.  Normally, selecting 
an action from a menu operates on the selected element(s).

[...]
> Besides I never read anything about an "action on an object" in this 
> thread, as you call it...

I am trying to give a good name to a metaphor change advocated by 
context menu fans.  Feel free to try a better one.

[...]
> reason why I am writing these emails is because I believe contextual 
> menus are a useful addition to our UI and should (IMHO) be defended 
> against FUD.

Similarly, I believe our UI is already consistent and efficient about 
menus and should (IMO) be defended against this FUD from context menu 
advocates.

[...]
> Of course we are not gods, but still I disagree with your comment 
> about our UIG

You can disagree, but please post a reference to where in the NextStep 
UIG context menus are mentioned.  I can't find it.

> [...] to me it seems you claim to know exactly what is true and what 
> not, and you do not even try to understand arguments or opinions 
> brought in by others.

Others seem not to be bringing reasoned arguments, just random claims. 
 Opinions differ, I know, but I can't understand many of the claims of 
context menu advocates, so I question them.  For example, "context 
menus are no more hidden than submenus" or whatever it was is just 
totally bizarre.

Beyond that, it's really quite simple.  I think that wanting context 
menus is a symptom of other breakages and people think of context 
menus because that is a kludge adopted by some other platforms.

> The way you phrase some of your arguments indicates a lot to me 
> here... if this is wrong then I apologise.

We're probably not using the best medium here, but English is the 
language used for now.  English is horribly ambiguous and I know that 
my phrasing is probably different to the majority on this list.  So be 
it.  I am a native English speaker and I even still speak with my own 
accent in real life.  I know I can't guess at what normal expressions 
of mine may cause offence to some, but try to keep that in mind when 
reading me.

[...]
> That is not bad per se, it is the same with 'toolbar' icons for 
> example (I do not refer to NSToolbar here but to its concept which is 
> a typical element in our UI) .

Yes, to a lesser degree.  At least toolbars are reasonably visible and 
noticable.

[...]
> > Yes, I know the guidelines will say that they should check both, but 
> > the
> > very fact that we are having this debate illustrates that even the 
> > best
> > and brightest developers don't always follow the guidelines.
> So what? This does not make anything bad, just because some 
> developers don't do their job correctly!

The developer in question isn't a bad developer and saw something in 
the libs that he thought he could use.  If it happened here, it will 
probably happen lots more.

[...]
> I agree, but I do not see an argument against contextual menus here 
> either.

Yeah, I know I'm short on data too, mainly because I'm short on time, 
but the status quo of the UIG is with me and I know it's in the 
usability literature.  Let those who want change bring the data first 
;-)

--
MJR/slef   My Opinion Only and possibly not of any group I know.
     http://mjr.towers.org.uk/   jabber://slef@jabber.at
Creative copyleft computing services via http://www.ttllp.co.uk/
      Thought: "Changeset algebra is really difficult."