Re: So, honestly, is GNUStep a viable development option?

[Riccardo]

HI,

this discussion is a bit sidestepping and taking up precious time to 
reply, still, let me make some short commrents.

On 2007-11-13 14:37:39 +0100 "Mark Grice" <markjoel60@gmail.com> wrote:

> If UBUNTU has shown us nothing, it has shown us that.
<flame>
steal the work of others, make up some bad packages which are often 
broken, hide everything behind some shiny desktops and setups and call 
it a distro?
</flame>

> I get a sense that most GNUStep developers today were NEXTStep (or
> OpenStep) developers in the past. That is fine, but you have to
> realize that you started into GNUStep with a lot more understanding of
this is pretty wrong. Although some people here used NeXT, I come from 
the Mac and Unix world.
One day I wanted to develop. Also, I was tired of that shiny, bloggy, 
yummy look that most linux stuf has and which just wastes my 
resources. I was happy with apple but found it just un-professional 
looking, furthermore the more macos evlolved the less I could share 
some of its choices.
I speak for myself, but I know of others.
And I was a total newbie. I fo und installing gnustep extremely easy 
on debian: just install the packages and start the stuff from 
windowmaker menu. Sure that was the beginning. Quickly I wanted my own 
environment and reading the tutorial from Dennis I set up my 
environment. Easy. Easier than compiling gnome or kde! just get the 
release tarballs, configure, make install. Once you need to source 
that file or you can put it in yor shell script.
But if you want to develop, you better master these small tricks.


> I have gone on Amazon and found used books on NEXTStep development.
> I've ordered them and hope they will help fill the gaps I am missing
> to understanding exactly what GNUStep gives me. That isn't a viable
> strategy for everyone though. (For one thing, the source of used books
> will one day dry up...)
OpenStep would have been better.
But many tutorials for the old Rhapsody or early macOS just apply 1:1! 
The dev. environment is a bit different, but gorm operates like 
interface builder and once you get that "make" is needed (but 
ProjectCenter hides that for you) you can just redo them.
Also this appears a world where you need to feed everybody.
Gnustep has an example package with some apps which cover many aspects 
of development. Furthermore being most applications opensource you can 
just take them and dissect them. Bootrap is easy, you need just a 
couple of things
- understanding Objc. The NeXT or Apple book is perfect for that and 
freely available
- knowing your dev. environment. Either ProjectCenter+Gorm or your 
makefiles with vi/emacs.
- get a general grasp of Foundation and AppKit

then just start coding, the rest comes by itself.


> 1. Stop the mailing list and put up a forum. That is the preferred
> method of communication for most people these days. This takes about
> one day to do, and costs little or nothing. I would be happy to set up
> the basic structure for this if anyone wants me to, but I obviously
> can't fill in all of the information. I'd even be willing to register
> the domain and pay for the first year (and maybe more, but I can
> easily commit to a year...)
forums are terribly time consuming. A mailing list is really better. 
And I use forums elsewhere, so I know what they are.
If the mailing list bothers you you can use the gmane news gateway.

There is also an IRC channel.

> 2. Detailed installation instructions. PLEASE. I actually had very
> little trouble getting GNUStep on Ubuntu. I used the Synaptic Package
> manager, clicked everything even resembling GNUSTEP, and had no
> problems at all. HOWEVER -- The GNUStep.org page still includes a link
> for UBUNTU that is almost 3 years old! I read that and was so
> confused, I almost gave up!
help updating the wiki. Or think before giving up.

> And, I still read that some people can't manage to get it installed.
> This is a real problem.  We need instructions that even a Linux/Unix
> noob can follow. These people are a GREAT source of new converts
> because a lot of them haven't made their mind up yet about GNOME vs.
> KDE, and are open to new development environments.
a developer is never a noob, so the instructions just need to be up to 
date. But this consumes time and resources.
Users should just be able to use packages form their distro, but this 
requires them to be well set up.


> 3. Update the examples. It's nice to have them, but with no document
> to describe them, and virtually no comments in the code, they aren't
> very helpful. And make sure they work on the main Distros. (i.e.
> Debian, Ubuntu, and Redhat)  My PC/GORM problem is the prime example
> of something that should never happen to someone following a script.
I commented that above. Your problem is related to some setup or a bug 
or both. Gnustep runs on a much more diversified environment than KDE 
:)

> 3. More tutorials. More examples. My suggestion: Scour the net for the
> new KDevelop and GLADE examples. Take one and re-do it in GNUStep.
> SHOW people why working with GORM and GNUSTEP cuts down on their
> programming time. I'll be happy to help out here -- but first I need
> to learn this myself...
commented above.

> A) Update the look and feel. If that means Cameleon, great. If it is
> Etoille. Fine. But there should be ONE PLACE to get this. That should
> be the MAIN ROOT, not a branch. If someone wants to keep the old style
> NEXTStep look and feel THAT should be a branch. The main code has to
> move forward in this area or no one will take GNUStep seriously.
the main code should remain main code. Full stop. I agree with you 
though that gettin the stuff means searching over scattered places.
Ideally one should just to be able to install "package X" to get look 
X by using its package manager.
I also propsoed a section of the website where to cater themes to 
download and each with a quick screenshot. People who love themes lvoe 
that kind of stuff too (think of skins of opera or seamonkey)


> B) Native widgets. Why not? I used to work for Neuron Data about 15
> years ago. We had a product called Open Interface that provided a
> cross-platform GUI. It was great when we started -- a superset of all
> windowing environments... but we couldn't keep up. Critical mass was
> against us. Our developers kept telling us that there was no way to
> use native toolkits then... suddenly... there was. It made a
> difference. Now if I opened a file dialog box it looked like everyone
> else's. That is HUGE to a user. I can't emphasize it enough...
leave the native wiedget duscussion out of this thread. What themes 
should support though is the emulation of a native look. This is what 
original openstep did, btw. It worked fine on win32.

I cut the other points since I didn't think of a godo reply to generic 
comments of them.

I just think ther eis no "before" and "after" stages. It is a flow. 
Better website developed along beter and more applications developed 
alongside better themes, etc.... It is even happening as now, it just 
takes time out of our few resources

Cheers,
 Riccardo