Re: Kickstarter was not successful... but it did help things...

[Doc O'Leary]

In article <mailman.10113.1387771393.10748.discuss-gnustep@gnu.org>,
 Gregory Casamento <greg.casamento@gmail.com> wrote:

> Mr O'leary,
> 
> (I won't call you doc as you've not earned it in my estimation)

Really?  I continue to offer you the choice to act maturely, and instead 
you choose to get into a petty huff about my nickname?

Look, you need to stop searching outward for a target of hatred.  Take 
some time and think about your behavior.  Are you being the best 
possible person you could be?  Come back at the start of next year with, 
hopefully, a better perspective on how to set goals and cooperate with 
people to achieve them.

Or don't.  I'll be quite able to defend myself as necessary.

> Believe it or not I actually meant those polls.

And that's the problem.  You don't need to take polls to determine the 
color of the sky.  The evidence speaks for itself.  Everybody *knows* 
what changes need to be made.  The problem remains the lack of resolve 
to form a coherent plan on how to address them.

> You do nothing
> but criticize.

Because those in charge, time and time again, refuse to *act* on the 
criticism.  Instead of admitting the problems and discussing changes 
rationally, you get all snippy.  Too many people here act as though 
problems don't exist so long as you don't talk about them ("be 
positive!").

> Do a search in the mailing list archives. The discussion is there.   The
> consensus was that we should.  There was also discussion regarding how
> uikit should be implemented whether it should be implemented on top of
> appkit (as with chameleon) or on its own.

What, then, is the *result* of that discussion?  If it's a settled 
matter, why the hell are you starting a new poll?  Why doesn't the 
website reflect the consensus?  Don't think you can put the burden on 
the world to make sense of your project for you.

> Perhaps you should learn to lead an open source project yourself before you
> judge me or others on this project.

You don't have to be a good pitcher to be a good umpire.  More to this 
discussion, what I am judging you on is the attitude you bring.  It 
certainly isn't welcoming.  Are you being the kind of leader you want to 
be?  Are you being the kind of leader you like to see on other open 
source projects?

> You asked for reasons why Apple did what they did. I gave you the reasons
> that I'm aware of. Do you want citations or something?  This is not a
> science journal.

I wanted *good* reasons.  It's not your fault if Apple doesn't have 
them.  It is your fault, though, if you don't have good reasons of your 
own for copying them.  I call out Apple when they do something 
questionable just as I call you out.  Maybe I'm wrong and maybe they do 
have a good reason, but nobody has shown me anything convincing.

> > The question I'm asking is about the
> > significant differences, if any, that require you to do more than change
> > and NS- prefix to UI-.  I mean, my fundamental use of UIView isn't any
> > different than what my use of NSView has been for decades.  That events
> > might be touch-based is really of *very* little significance.
> >
> >
> That was not evident from the phrasing of your original question, sir.

Maybe that's why discussion is needed.  Unless it's already been 
settled.  Unless the polls say otherwise.  Unless . . . I hope my point 
here is evident.

> I do see value in these discussions as I've told you before.

You've also said the exact opposite.  You'd do well to stop sending 
mixed messages.  Change your mind or don't.  Make a choice and support 
it.  It's not difficult.

> Until you do something productive.  You're only hot air to me.

Nice way to express seeing value in discussions.

> You have
> some salient points, but if you're unwilling to act on them it makes you
> just as useless as you claim we are.

I have no authority to meaningfully act on them.  It is up to *you* to 
say "Yes, that's a great idea, and here's some more information to help 
you along, and here's what I'll do to make it fit in relation to other 
parts."  Instead, all you offer is hostility at the very mention of 
change.  As I have said before, I'm not here for a fight or to usurp 
power.  The easiest act here will be to walk away.

> As David so aptly put it. Talk is cheap. Walk the walk. Prove youself. This
> is a meritocracy and so far you have none.

And I will happily *continue* to have none so long as your only measure 
of worth is the addition of code to an incoherent project.  By refusing 
to walk in a random direction, I show more merit than you can apparently 
allow yourself to admit.

> No one is doing that here aside from you. All I've seen in this thread is
> you touting how much better your way of thinking is than anything we've
> done.  To that I say "prove it."

What you seem to not understand is that it gets proven time and time 
again.  As has been pointed out, discussions like this keep popping up, 
and nothing comes of them.  As a result, GNUstep remains *far* less 
relevant than it should be.  The proof lies in the ever-widening gap 
between who is using GNUstep's fruits and who is using Apple's fruits.  
You're strutting around, walking the walk, like you're hot shit when you 
really should be *embarrassed*.  Or at least a bit humble.

> I have taken many of your points to heart!

Yes, yes; the valued hot air has *clearly* been taken to heart.  So very 
believable . . .

> Stop being a pompous ass and actually do something for a change, but then
> you might have to actually DO something wouldn't you?

It is up to you to realize that your definition of "DO" is fundamentally 
flawed.  Until that happens, you won't be able to see who is really 
being an ass here.

> At least most of us are trying to actually do something for this project.
>  Have you even made one commit?  Have you invested one hour coding or gone
> to conferences or speaking engagements or taking on shows in order to get
> the word out?  Have you spent even one iota of effort?  What gives you the
> right to sit there in judgement of us when you have not lifted even one
> finger to help aside from writing these emails.

What gives you the right to demand more of me when you're being this 
kind of leader?  From the outside looking in, you really aren't 
projecting anything attractive enough to have people flocking to be on 
the inside looking out.  Think about it.

> When I joined the discussion I told you directly that we are considering
> your ideas and you can't seem to absorb that. You have to find a way to
> keep arguing.

I'm just stating thing directly.  It is you who has taken the stance 
that such a thing is argumentative.  I again ask you to change your 
thinking.

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