Re: Some developement questions

[hw]

Phil Sainty <address@hidden> writes:

> On 02/09/18 05:40, hw wrote:
>> Since when does Alt work the same as ESC?
>
> I can't see a Meta key on a vt100 keyboard, so I suspect this has
> been the situation from the beginning (so 30+ years for GNU Emacs
> alone).

I tried it the other day, and I can say that is the first time in about
30 years that it worked.  IIRC, the Atari ST didn't have an Alt key,
either, and that is the first computer I used Emacs on.

It doesn't really matter because the Alt key is on the same side of the
keyboard as the ESC key, which is simply the wrong side for this
application.  Changing the key bindings would be difficult, and it tends
to be inconvenient when using Emacs on other computers, so I prefer to
keep them at their defaults.

How many users are using Emacs with VT100 keyboards?

>> Why shouldn't Emacs adjust to changes and adopt new key bindings so
>> it becomes easier to use?
>
> It's important to understand that changes which would make life easier
> for you may well be making life harder for existing users.  Changing
> established key bindings (which have been in muscle memory of many
> users for literal decades) is a big deal.

Yes, I'm not suggesting to remove existing key bindings for this, only
to add Alt+left and Alt+right to go back and forth in info buffers.

Here's another idea I had this morning while making coffee:

Users may prefer reading documentation in a web browser for at least two
reasons: Navigation is easier, and the browser can have Tabs.  This is
kinda only one reason, but can Emacs have Tabs?

If Emacs can have Tabs and show its documentation with all the ease a
web browser can, life would be much easier for many users.

> Emacs provides tremendous flexibility when it comes to customising its
> key bindings to meet your personal preferences; but remember that they
> are your *personal* preferences, which may not match the preferences
> or expectations of other users.

I have different key bindings for Emacs at work than I have at home.  It
has taken years before I finally sent parts of my ~/.emacs over, and I
only did that when I was at it anyway.

Why?  It takes time to do all that.  I will continue to miss 'F8 d'
which puts the current date at point into the current buffer because
that requires more time to get working.

There are reasons why I suggested it would be nice if we could package a
configuration, including all dependencies, easily.

I'm finding it very annoying that some keys, and thus some key bindings,
do not work when using Emacs in a terminal, like Ctrl+Home and Ctrl+End
only work in X frames.

>> The issue is that I very rarely use info and thus do not remember
>> its key bindings.  Does the help page I got stuck in say anywhere
>> how to get back?
>
> Everything you need is in the Info menu.

That doesn't help when the menu is disabled.

>>>> I have menu and toolbar disabled ...
>>>
>>> Complaining about navigability and discoverability of an interface
>>> while having disabled its most discoverable features meant to guide
>>> new users is a strange combination.
>>
>> I'm pointing out a usability issue and you call it complaining.
>
> The menu bar directly addresses that usability issue.  That's its
> purpose.

The menu is disabled by default because it takes up screen space.  I'm
just not using it, so why leave it enabled?

> It's a bit like removing the training wheels from a bicycle and then
> wondering why the bike allowed you to fall over when you lost your
> balance, no?

I learned riding bicycles over 40 years ago and actually never used
training wheels.  The first ride ended in a pile of sand down the road;
after that, it was ok.

IIRC, Emacs didn't have a menu when I started to learn using it.

> I wouldn't recommend disabling the menus in *any* application without
> establishing how to access them again if you realised you needed to.
> With Emacs, even with the menu bar disabled, you still have access to
> them via F10 or M-` and in GUI frames the Info menu is also directly
> available via the mode line.

It didn't come to mind to use the menu.  You do not deploy the training
wheels of your bike every time you need to go around a corner, do you?

Web browsers nowadays also come with the menu disabled.  Strange world,
huh?