RE: customize options and faces are not in alphabetical order

[Drew Adams]

>  > - They are apparently not autoloaded, so `C-h v' doesn't recognize them
>  > until customize has been loaded.
>
> How can `C-h v' help you to find something you're not aware of?

That's not the point. The point is that these should be well documented, and
autoloaded so you can get to the documentation.

However, C-h v can easily help you find something you are not aware of, by
showing you what's available with completion. I do it every day.

>  > - None are mentioned in the Emacs manual (or the Elisp manual, for that
>  > matter), so a user is unlikely to know about them.
>
> They are customizable, so users should be able to find them.

Why would they look for them if they are not aware of them, to use your
logic?

>  > - What is the difference between them, besides the fact that
>  > they are in
>  > different subgroups of the Customize group? They have identical doc
>  > strings - how is a user to understand their difference? What
>  > is the scope of
>  > the sorting (where are the members sorted)? Why are there 3
>  > separate options
>  > for this, if they all do the same thing (same doc string)?
>
> This should be improved.

Agreed.

>  > - Why would the default value of any of these be nil (off)? If
>  > the nil order
>  > is (apparently) random, how does that benefit anyone as the
>  > default value?
>
> The "nil" order is the one chosen by the designer of the option.

Emacs maintainers are now responsible. I don't know what the designer's
rationale was, and I don't see a good rationale. I was asking if there is
one.

>  > I don't understand why we would even have such options - who
>  > would ever want a random order?
>
> Why do you think it's random?

I said "apparently". I have no idea what determines the order. It is not an
obvious, understandable, or obviously useful order. I don't care if it's
actually random. I asked if there was a good reason for it, and you
essentially told me to go ask the designer.

>  > A better idea, if really we want to allow users flexibility in
>  > the order, is
>  > to use a sort function as the customizable value, and have
>  > `string-lessp' be
>  > the default value. If you want to allow unsorted (random),
>  > then use this:
>  >
>  > (defcustom custom-sort-alphabetically 'string-lessp
>  >   "Sort function for Customize buffers.
>  > Do not sort if the value is nil.
>  >   :type '(choice (const :tag "None" nil) function))
>  >
>  > I personally don't see why anyone would want an order other
>  > than alphabetic,
>  > but at least that would be a reasonable way to give people a
>  > choice. The
>  > current approach does not seem useful.
>
> It would give people the inverse choice, not fundamentally different
> though.

Fundamentally different: they could supply any sort function. Now they have
a choice between string-lessp and nil, that's all.