On sun 23may tom asked if any supporters had been to the esf before I am actualy involved in the creative social forum at least in so far as envisioning ad public relations goes , and have talked to other members of affs and sinserly believe that the precene of one ort two members or supporters of free software foundsation , could go a long way to promoting both the ethic and dynamic orf suh aleigencies . this is an important an crucial subject the creative social forum attracts many people many of whome are ne to the whole idea as are ypur own groupes irt is open and free to any person group or organisation who have at the core , the future developement of open democracy and global co-operation the next meeting will take place on the 12th june 2004 at the relatively new 142 project in lea bridge road for further info or details check out the
www.europeancreativeforum.org website , there
is much happening and with the right input much more to come your david
address@hidden wrote:
Send Fsfe-uk mailing list submissions to
address@hidden
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
http://mail.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/fsfe-uk
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
address@hidden
You can reach the person managing the list at
address@hidden
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Fsfe-uk digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. Re: [discuss] Re: [Fsfe-uk] Re: [discuss] Open source
software News (Ralph Janke)
2. Re: AFFS presence at Stallman meeting tonight ? (MJ Ray)
3. Re: Re: [discuss] Open source software News (Ralph Janke)
4. Is there anyone in favour of the patents? (Paul)
5. Re: European Social Forum (Tom Chance)
6. Re: Re: Standing Orders, Postal Votes etc. (John Seago)
7. Infopoint report
(Richard Smedley)
8. Re: Re: [Debian-uk] Free software and UK law (MJ Ray)
9. AFFS article by Richard Smedley in Central Government
(Marc Eberhard)
10. Linux User Issue 39 page 51 (Tom Coady)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 15:04:25 +0100
From: Ralph Janke
Subject: Re: [discuss] Re: [Fsfe-uk] Re: [discuss] Open source
software News
Cc: address@hidden, address@hidden
Message-ID: <address@hidden>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Sander Vesik wrote:
> Chris Sherlock wrote:
>
>> I suppose this seems like a fair enough answer... I guess you see
>> software more as an infrastructure that the govt should maintain and
>> develop. I'm still not so sure...
>>
>> What I *do* think, however, is that governments should
make it
>> compulsory for software companies (and peripheral companies, in
>> particular!) to open their code. Do you know the number of times I've
>> had to scrap or make do with 2nd-best because I couldn't see the
>> source code of some crappy product???? :) I guess that's why I only
>> run Linux now (especially now I've worked out CUPS and Samba).
>>
>
> I don't agree with this - governemnts dictating things about software
> and hardware have so far only given lots of negative results. The
> goverment should require that things it buys have open interfaces (and
> this applies to both hardware and software). This gives you a good
> balance and keeps most of the lobbyists from paying attention and
> screewing things royaly up.
>
>> Chris
>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Fsfe-uk mailing
list
> address@hidden
> http://mail.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/fsfe-uk
>
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 02:28:39 +0100
From: MJ Ray
Subject: Re: [Fsfe-uk] AFFS presence at Stallman meeting tonight ?
To: address@hidden
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed"
On 2004-05-21 13:43:45 +0100 James Heald wrote:
> Who from AFFS will be along at the Stallman meeting tonight ?
Sadly, gnu.org list lag seems to have attacked this message. I had a
prior engagement, else I think I would have made the 3hr trip. Did
anyone with leaflets make it?
--
MJR/slef
My Opinion Only and possibly not of any group I know.
http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ for creative copyleft computing
Help hack the EuroParl!
http://mjr.towers.org.uk/proj/eurovote/
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 15:03:46 +0100
From: Ralph Janke
Subject: Re: [Fsfe-uk] Re: [discuss] Open source software News
Cc: address@hidden, address@hidden
Message-ID: <address@hidden>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Tom Yates wrote:
>On Fri, 12 Mar 2004, ian wrote:
>
>
>
>>No, I'm not a socialist, I am in business and happen to believe
>>customers should be served by business not simply exploited by either
>>state or private monopolies. This is why Government should fund FLOSS
>>projects but insist they are GPL, not Crown copyright (UK).
>>
>>
>
>Not only are GPL and Crown Copyright *not* self-contradictory, copyright
>is required in order for the GPL to
apply.
>
>I don't want to seem deliberately picky, but I think it's worth making the
>point that free software licences *require* a working copyright system in
>order to function. A lot of people, particularly laymen, misunderstand
>that point and I think that's one of the most common causes of the
>accusation of "socialism" that we seem to have to defend against on a
>regular basis.
>
>
>
>
Tom, you are absolutely right. GPL is based on the foundation of a
working copyright law. Also GPL is far less socialistic
than patents. Free markets are working because of competition. In order
to have price stability and innovation, it is very
helpful to have as much competition as possible.
Patents on the other side are granting monopolies. While one could argue
that the monopoly is usually granted to a private person
or organisation, it is granted by the government (actually an
organisation delegated to do this) in the name of the state. It is highly
regulatory since it is a monopoly. It prevents competition since it is a
monopoly and therefore most of the times has the effect
of slowing down innovation.
However, even patents have their place where investments are so high,
that without a "protected" market the risk of investment is too high, and
therefore the absence of a monopoly market for some time would prevent
the development of i.e. medication that is beneficial to society.
Patents therefore should be used as remedy for problems that free
markets are not setup to solve, not as general applicable principle.
A general principle of ownership for a few of something that should be
able to be owned (through copyright) by many should be called feudalism.
I do not see why it can be claimed that it is socialism when competition
is promoted,
Also, the fight against patents that are granted for every
little thing
that is often neither novel but rather in the realm of common sense should
be rather described as a fight against a neo-feudalism than to be
compared to socialism.
Therefore copyright is an important foundation in a free market, patents
applied in the wrong way will lead to a form of neo-feudalism.
Ralph Janke
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 11:13:00 +0100
From: Paul
Subject: [Fsfe-uk] Is there anyone in favour of the patents?
To: FSFE , accu-g
Message-ID: <address@hidden>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hi,
Can anyone suggest someone prepared to argue the case for patents within
the EU on software?
I'm trying to get a point - counterpoint couple of articles for
forthcoming editions of C Vu. It is such an important issue to
all
software developers that exposure is required, if for nothing else than
to ensure everyone who reads C Vu is aware of the implications.
If you can think of anyone, please let me know either via the list or at
address@hidden
Thanks
TTFN
Paul
--
"Your lives are in the hands of men no smarter than you or I, many of
them incompetent boobs. I know this because I worked alongside them,
gone bowling with them, watched them pass me over for promotions time
and again. And I say ... This stinks!" - Homer Simpson
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 189 bytes
Desc: This is a digitally signed message part
Url : http://mail.gnu.org/pipermail/fsfe-uk/attachments/20040523/463040e8/attachment.pgp
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 11:39:15 +0000
From: Tom Chance
Subject: Re: [Fsfe-uk] European Social Forum
To: address@hidden
Message-ID: <address@hidden>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
On Saturday 08 May 2004 11:52, MJ Ray wrote:
> The European Social Forum is in London in October, see
> http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/actions/2004/esf/
>
> Do we have supporters who have been to ESF before? Should AFFS be
> there? How? What should we do there? Who will help with this? :-)
> Sorry for all the questions, but I do not know ESF practically well at
> all.
I'll come to this e-mail finally :-) I've not actually been to the ESF, but I
have friends who have. Basically we could do three things there:
- Run a seminar with other FS/digital rights groups around Europe (we'd have
to pay ~200 euros to cover costs) either to discuss issues, organise
campaigns or educate attendees, or a little of all
three (without diluting).
- Run a workshop without support from the ESF but have it 'there'
- Just mingle with other interested people, hand out lots of information, etc.
If we could arrange the first idea, perhaps through all of the FSFE's
associate groups, and get any other related groups involved (e.g. FFII and
UKCDR) that would be a really valuable opportunity. It would also help to
give digital rights and Free Software issues more prominent in the activist
communities.
Regards,
Tom
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 13:58:44 +0100
From: John Seago
Subject: [Fsfe-uk] Re: Re: Standing Orders, Postal Votes etc.
To: address@hidden
Message-ID: <address@hidden>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
On Thursday 01 January 1970 00:59, (Undated Digests) Date: Sat, 22 May 2004
20:36:05 +0100 MJ Ray wrote:
> As you know, I'm reluctant to play with the constitution any more than
> absolutely necessary yet, because it's relatively well-worn, but known
> to be incomplete. If we can put the simplest possible completion to it
> in the form of the Rules and let them run for a year or so, then I'd
> agree with replacing it if doesn't work.
Standing Orders, there are two options here:
a) Agree the Model Set with the constitution and adopt them.
b) Just adopt the section numbered 6 as something like "Guidance for the
conduct of Meetings" which will allow greater flexibility.
Elections, as yet there seems to have been no need to actually hold an
election, but that situation is unlikely to continue, so there needs first
of all to be a decision on what kind of elections we are going to hold,
and secondly if they are to be postal. (To clarify this both 10b and the
final part of 6d need to decided by the either the Committee before the
next AGM, or the next AGM itself.
I have yet to see a 'Flood' of Email's, but then I take the Digest, which
itself seems to be having problems with its dates.
--
John Seago
Linux User #219566 (http://counter.li.org)
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 16:18:57 +0100
From: Richard Smedley
Subject: [Fsfe-uk] Infopoint report
To: address@hidden
Message-ID: <address@hidden>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
A few of us spent yesterday at Bowlers in Manchester (the largest
computer fair in Europe, apparently). Northern Computer Markets
have donated a stall per month at each of their events to a
``Linux Infopoint'', under an arrangement with Jono Bacon of
Wolverhampton LUG.
It went quite well,
with several AFFS leaflets given out, and people
very interested in software freedom. All but a couple of people who
passed by had at least a vague idea of what GNU/Linux was,
though finding 5 people spending a day giving things away for
nothing was a bit of a puzzle for some =o) - perhaps not so
surprising at an event where people were able to /buy/ *screensavers* 8^/
Anyway, next time we'll take more literature and get a couple of colourful
posters. One eye-catching app we found v good to have on display was bb:
apt-cache show bb
[snip]
Description: An ASCII-art demo based on AAlib
This package contains a 'high quality audio-visual demonstration'
of ASCCI-art using AAlib, a portable ASCII-art graphics library.
This demonstration can be displayed in a text- or X11-terminal.
Which really has to be seen to be believed =o))
Anyone within striking distance of an NCM event, get on the
infopoint mailing list
at
http://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/infopoint
- Richard
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 13:00:13 +0100
From: MJ Ray
Subject: Re: [Fsfe-uk] Re: [Debian-uk] Free software and UK law
To: address@hidden
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed"
On 2004-05-22 15:15:54 +0100 Ralph Janke
wrote:
> It is not only defined as described here by the Berner convention and
> therefore through the international law in form
> of the treaty of the Berner converntion valid in all participating
> countries,
> but also written in a directive (if I remember correctly)
> in EU law. [...]
Both the Berne convention and EU copyright directives allow quite a
lot of scope for national differences,
especially on things like "fair
use". Some variations are also probably required to accommodate
copyright and author-right in the same framework. I can believe that
England/Scotland differences may be minor, but there could be
significant variation England/Germany.
However, I only really wonder about non-UK for the case of the "EU
Datagrid" licence anyway. It's probably not very interesting to ask
"are any free software licences enforceable under UK laws" because it
seems sure some (most?) will be but we won't know for sure until there
are real cases. It's not the same question as "are there free software
licences written specifically with UK laws in mind". I am interested
in this last question and happy to hear about them, although I'm
working on the euroVote more right now.
--
MJR/slef
My Opinion Only and possibly not of any group I know.
http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ for creative copyleft computing
Help hack the
EuroParl! http://mjr.towers.org.uk/proj/eurovote/
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 09:23:49 +0100
From: Marc Eberhard
Subject: [Fsfe-uk] AFFS article by Richard Smedley in Central
Government
To: AFFS mailing list
Message-ID: <address@hidden>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Dear all,
anyone who hasn't spotted it yet (probably including Richard himself),
here's the article from the table of contents at
http://www.publicservice.co.uk/pub_contents.asp?id=125
scroll down half an hour an eventually arrive at
http://www.publicservice.co.uk/pdf/cg/8/CG8 1704 R Smedley ATL Amen.pdf
and enjoy! Nice AFFS logo and picture... well done Richard!!!
Thanks,
Marc
_______________________________________________________________________________
email: address@hidden,
address@hidden, address@hidden
email: address@hidden, web: http://www.aston.ac.uk/~eberhama/
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 10:43:32 +0100
From: Tom Coady
Subject: [Fsfe-uk] Linux User Issue 39 page 51
To: Tom Chance
Cc: address@hidden
Message-ID: <address@hidden>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Congratulations to Tom Chance for not only lobbying the EU but also
gaining valuable publicity. I suspect that things have moved on a bit
since this, but perhaps we can attribute the small concessions
achieved since to this visit.
------------------------------
_______________________________________________
Fsfe-uk mailing list
address@hidden
http://mail.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/fsfe-uk
End of Fsfe-uk Digest, Vol 18, Issue
20
***************************************