Re: [Fsuk-manchester] Fwd: Event: Manchester Girl Geek Dinner #2 - 7:00 PM Friday, July 25, 2008

[Dave Page]

On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 12:14:57PM +0100, MJ Ray wrote:

> One difference is that it was a *feeling* of exclusion, not an actual
> one.  Few "geek industries" events *actually* exclude women, as far as
> I know.

A *feeling* of exclusion is still a serious problem for the community to
tackle.

> I have challenged such policies in the past and actually been told to
> go create other events with "men-only" policies - of course, I hope
> that few men would be stupid enough to support such an event, but
> "women-only" events legitimise them.  That's really not good for
> equality, is it?

There's clearly not a equivalence between women-only (or rather,
women-oriented) and men-only events, in the context of a male-dominated
community. An event which attempts to redress a balance and support a
minority (regardless of whether it does or not) is not comparable to an
event which supports an existing dominant majority.

> One could argue that man/woman is a matter of choice these days, but
> that's pretty extreme.

Yeah, let's save the argument about how the geek community treats its
surprisingly large transgender component for another thread :)

> > NWDC members in attendance use it as a means to try and increase the  
> > diversity of their own events. "You liked this event? Well, given your  
> > industry, you might like to meet some other people at GeekUp/.NET UG/ 
> > whatever". As a result, those groups have seen a slight increase in  
> > female attendance which *has* to be a good thing for the community.

> Would that have been much different if it was a women-targetted event
> instead of a women-only-plus-guests event?

I can't back it up with figures but I suspect, from my experience of
other minority-oriented groups, that there are some women who wouldn't
feel comfortable attending a women-targetted event who would feel
comfortable attending a women-plus-guests event.

I suspect that everybody (male) who takes offence to the invitation
policy of the Girl Geek dinners does so because they themselves are a
reasonable, respectful person. It's actually hard to overstate just how
unpleasant are some of the experiences some women have had in the geek
community. I've certainly witnessed enough myself, both online and in
person. A women-plus-guests event may be a useful way of providing a
"safe space" for these people, and give them a chance to eventually
re-engage with the wider geek community.

> The meal may be trying to prioritise women, but hindering men on
> biological grounds is a self-defeating way to do it.  Current
> inequality should lead us to fight for equality, not to add more
> inequality in a misguided attempt to fiddle the figures and meet
> targets.  Greater inequality will never bring true equality.

Forgive me if this is an inappropriate analogy, but you seem to be
drawing a straight line between where we are now with respect to
equality and where we should be - a fully equal society. The idea of a
women-plus-guests geek dinner does not appear on that route.

However, I don't think that's a navigable route, or at least it's
terribly steep, possibly too steep for some or most in our community. I
see a route to equality which takes a gentler, more winding road, and an
event like the Girl Geek Dinners is a step on that way.

Cheers,

Dave
-- 
Dave Page <address@hidden>
Jabber: address@hidden