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Re: [gnugo-devel] Joseki variations question


From: Evan Berggren Daniel
Subject: Re: [gnugo-devel] Joseki variations question
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 14:30:35 -0500 (EST)

Given that Gnu Go does not do any reading for josekis at present, there
are no added complications for Gnu Go that arise from adding the position
to the joseki database.  And, even if it did, the B move at Q3 is
non-joseki, and would be marked as such, and therefore Gnu Go would never
read it out.  So the only questions are simplicity in maintaining
the database, program size, and work that may have to done to update the
database in the event of future changes to Gnu Go.

In the position I reffered to, the question isn't so much what happens to
the stones, as whether a local move is required or tenuki is acceptable.
IMHO, a local play is in order, and one way to fix that problem is to add
the variation to the joseki database.

Evan Daniel

On Thu, 27 Mar 2003, SP LEE wrote:

> I think this question reveals the complicated aspects of Go. The stones
> could be dead, alive, or anywhere between dead and alive. The last
> possibility usually makes go players a lot of headache, because it will
> introduce a lot of variations. A good go player will reduce variations when
> he/she is leading, while add more variations when he/she is behind. However,
> in the beginning of the game, it's difficult to judge who is leading. Even
> so I think it's good to reduce variations for GNUGO, which will make the
> later thinking easier.
>
> So for this Joseki I think the question is not if the stones are going to
> die, but it's how easy they are going to live, or expand to larger
> territory.
>
> SP Lee
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Smith, Christopher" <address@hidden>
> To: "GNU Go development" <address@hidden>
> Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2003 8:44 AM
> Subject: RE: [gnugo-devel] Joseki variations question
>
>
> > This is an interesting question, it appears that GnuGo should somehow help
> those stones- but I am not sure if that is actually needed.
> >
> > If black played R2, Q2 would be a good follow-up. If Q6, R6 and then so
> on. It would obviously get messy in the battle for the corner but I am not
> sure if it is _guaranteed_ to die. But then again I am not an exceptionally
> strong player.
> >
> > Is there a way to just 'start' GnuGo from a position like this, but as the
> other color and see what GnuGo would think? Perhaps there is a great attack
> we know of and just the defense to it isn't in our DB.
> >
> > -Chris Smith
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Evan Berggren Daniel [mailto:address@hidden
> > Sent: Thu 3/27/2003 9:36 AM
> > To: address@hidden
> > Cc:
> > Subject: [gnugo-devel] Joseki variations question
> >
> >
> >
> > I noticed a problem in the game gnugo-3.3.17-ylamaki-200303262305.sgf.  At
> > move 9, the position is:
> >
> >    A B C D E F G H J K L M N O P Q R S T
> > 19 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 19
> > 18 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 18
> > 17 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 17
> > 16 . . . X . . . . . + . . . . . X . . . 16
> > 15 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 15
> > 14 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 14
> > 13 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 13
> > 12 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 12
> > 11 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 11
> > 10 . . . + . . . . . + . . . . . + . . . 10
> > 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9
> > 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8
> > 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7
> > 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6
> > 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . 5
> > 4 . . . X . . . . . + O . . . X O . . . 4
> > 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . . 3
> > 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2
> > 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1
> >    A B C D E F G H J K L M N O P Q R S T
> >
> >
> > Clearly, a play in the lower right is in order.  However, Gnu Go plays
> > tenuki.  To what degree do we wish to fix problems in variations like this
> > with changes to the joseki database?  I think it should be obvious to Gnu
> > Go that the lower right is the place to play, and there aren't any complex
> > considerations that it doesn't understand.  Clearly, complex or subtle
> > variations that aren't quite joseki need to be in the database, but there
> > is also value (I believe) to keeping the database small and uncluttered.
> >
> > What do other people think about this?
> >
> > Evan Daniel
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > gnugo-devel mailing list
> > address@hidden
> > http://mail.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnugo-devel
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----
>
>
> > _______________________________________________
> > gnugo-devel mailing list
> > address@hidden
> > http://mail.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnugo-devel
> >
>
>
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