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Re: language translator help


From: Thien-Thi Nguyen
Subject: Re: language translator help
Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 15:23:14 -0700

   From: Marius Vollmer <address@hidden>
   Date: 22 May 2002 22:50:51 +0200

   There is nothing veiled about it, I hope.  From my point of view, you
   are behaving in a dangerous way, dangerous to the Guile project.  I'm
   not categorically saying that you are wrong, but you are side-stepping
   the maintainer too bluntly.

ummm, i'm a maintainer as are all the people w/ write privs.  the only
difference between a maintainer and a user is those write privs.  you
additionally have administrative duties (tending the mailing list, etc),
that you seem to be carrying out quite capably.

these privs imply certain responsibilities.  when you say "little
community", you are basically avoiding the responsibilities to the
larger community, the users.  perhaps you don't know how to be properly
responsible; it's up to you to recognize the extent of that and take
steps to widen your viewpoint.  "i think not" is inadequate, sorry.

   While you may be good at identifying problems, you are bad at actually
   encouraging people to do better.  What you do looks to me mostly like
   standing on the side, accusing people of 'obvious' stupidities and
   pumping out philosophical dribble when asked to provide concreteness.

   This is not a good way to encourage volunteers.

again, "on the side" is not quite correct; you (and all maintainers) are
already standing in the middle of a crowd.  the more you cannot see this
the more you react against when one those crowd members (who might also
have the accidental property of having write privs) shouts loud enough
to penetrate your meditations.

what is the right way to encourage volunteers?  is it right to encourage
the mindset that volunteers must be in some little clique and not listen
to users?  is it right to ask for concreteness and yet not see it?  is
it right to not even provide concreteness yourself?

   I can't seem to cut thru to the meat of most of your comments.  I
   don't think I ignore users like you say.  I don't think you have a
   better grasp of good design than I do.  That can very well be a
   problem of mine, and not of yours.  If your message would be really
   serious I would expect you to try to present it so that I can
   understand it better.  Others would surely see the denseness of mine
   and support you.  This does not seem to happen, or maybe I'm blind to
   that as well.

sometimes it's difficult to see if you aren't motivated to look around.
do you think these mailing lists are the only place you are permitted to
look at?  be careful of logical fallacy: (smoke -> fire) does not mean
(no smoke -> no fire).

   The gist is that we two don't seem to communicate effectively, and
   don't trust each other.  That is bad and hopefully we can _both_ get
   over it.  I have to rely on the judgment of others who is right in our
   little dispute.  So, if anyone is listening, please enlighten me.

when i want to find trust in someone, i look at their actions, and don't
put much weight in their words only.  in this case, i can trust you to
break interfaces w/o consideration for people and programs using those
interfaces (and then maintaining unproductive us-vs-them attitude in the
ensuing outcry (should you choose to inform people), and then turning a
blind eye on your own practice so that the next time this happens the
outcry is muted and you can declare self-righteous victory -- just look
at this thread).

this is exactly the same way i trust usloth, btw.  it's a proprietary
mindset that really goes against the spirit of the GNU project (as well
as generally accepted principles of good software design and delivery).

   Your medicine does not seem to do me any good, thi.

obviously.  everyone is their own doctor.  what is your medicine?

   Please believe me, my main interest is not to stay maintainer of
   Guile.  But at the moment, I have that position and I really believe
   that in the best interests of the Guile project I can't allow it
   that you play your own game.  You can't just decide that you continue
   with a 1.4.x series and implement all your favorite things in it
   without consensus from the rest of the developers.

your premise is wrong (see below).

   At least, that is how I interpret your plan.  You did nothing to
   convince otherwise as of yet.

can you define "compatibility"?  answering that helps you to understand
and classify different changes as compatible or incompatible (or some
mixture).  from this understanding you can convince yourself.

   But note also that "your favorite things" might actually be good and
   valuable stuff for Guile.  I'm not saying that they are not.

   What I would like you to do, is to convince me that you are a
   constructive member of our little community, rather than a destructive
   one.  For that, please agree not to work on a 1.4.x release series
   without my approval (which I will give based on user and developer
   feedback), and to subscribe to guile-devel until we have agreed that
   guile-devel is counterproductive and should be closed completely.

what i would like you to do, is to write down under $workbook what you
consider "our little community" so that it can be logically refuted.
please understand that i don't consider your approval very worthwhile in
the scheme of things, but that may change depending on what you do.

   You might think that I act way beyond my competencies here, and that
   I'm abusing that little extra power that I have.  That might be the
   case, but we two are not the ones to decide this.

dude, it's my opinion that you are frantically grasping at straws in a
very uncool way.  perhaps you're stressed over something.  why not relax
w/ a cool beverage somewhere hot (or vice versa) and write down your
"guile developer guidelines" so that you can interview the next person
you want to extend write privs.  be sure to include "must obey the
Commander's orders", "must not question authority", and the like.  there
is a "rules of the evil overlord" series on the net that might provide a
good template.

or, you can strike out in a predictably juvenile way and raise your
blood pressure.  hopefully your medication compensates for that somehow.

thi



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