Re: Issues with emacs

[Rainer M Krug]

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On 24/06/12 08:39, rusi wrote:
> On Jun 24, 7:39 am, ken <geb...@mousecar.com> wrote:
> 
>> 5. Make the elisp documentation and tutorials so easy and fun to learn that 
>> tons of people
>> actually want to write code.
> 
> When I first started reading the emacs/elisp docs around 93 I found them a 
> model of clarity. 
> Has that changed much? I dont think so
> 
> Whats changed?  The fact that we are in 2012. In those days it was completely 
> natural to expect
> that somebody who used a computer read a manual Today thats a strange 
> requirement to say the
> least.
> 
> Would a modern kid using a new phone/car expect to read a manual? The fact is 
> they dont
> (whereas oldies like me struggle to find them :-) )
> 
> And so you give them emacs along with a manual and they look at you funny.
> 
> By chance they look inside and they find: - there's  a key called Meta? 
> Whazzat? - C-p and C-n
> do up and down? Really?! (and whatever is C- ?) - And when you tell them 
> arrow keys work just
> fine they are ready with a lock and key to put you away somewhere


And I this is a very important point: one advantage I think many of us see in 
emacs (you can
(probably even have to) do everything with keyboarsd shortcut / sequences) is 
the point where new
users omost often struggle - and I speak of experience. I started using emacs 
because of ESS-mode
for writing R programs - but I regularly tried eclipse because of its

1) more "convential" (read: GUI) look
2) the possibility to do everything with eh mouse.

but I always went back to emacs because simply ESS was much better.

Then I started, for a bigger project in R, to use org-mode for literate 
programming, and I thought
after some time again about eclipse, but: there is nothing like org mode.

So in a nutshell: I had to dig my way through the

a) "conservative look" (Which I really like by now!) and, more difficult,
b) the un-usual (in the eyes of most non-emacs users) keyboard shortcuts.

So two (probably three) points spring to mind which *could* make emacs more 
attractive for new
users to reach that "point of no return" where they realize: there is nothing 
like amacs!

1) improve the menu to live up to "moderm" menu standards, so that efffectually 
everything could
be done by using the mouse (*but most definitely keep the keyboard 
shortcuts!!!!!!!). I know that
this is not possible for all additional packages, but at least the emacs core 
should be usable
completely via mouse.

2) improve the GUI look, to conform more with a "modern" look

3) change the menu, so that there the new users learns to do the stuff by using 
the mose (and
introduce the keyboard e.g. in brackets).

- From my experience: when (or in many cases "if") the new user manages to 
accept and use way of
using emacs (now via initially *very strange* keyboard shortcuts) to reach the 
brilliant features
and tha land off possibilities hidden behind, they will stay. If the initial 
crossing of the
border can be done easier, more users will discover the wonders of emacs.

Cheers,

Rainer






> 
> tl;dr version: Saying that emacs manuals are not fun and easy to learn is 
> wrong.  Its just that
> reading them feels like 1980
> 


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