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From: Fortes Marcelo
Subject: L4-HURD , POSIX, UNIX
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 19:12:10 -0300 (ART)

> Message: 4
> Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 20:15:38 +0100
> From: Bas Wijnen <address@hidden>
> Subject: Re: L4-HURD , POSIX, UNIX
> To: address@hidden
> Message-ID:
> <address@hidden>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> On Fri, Oct 28, 2005 at 03:29:16PM -0300, Fortes
> Marcelo wrote:
> > Well some of participant are fighting about the
> design etc and be or not
> > POSIX compliant. Etc.
> I think we all agree that POSIX applications _must_
> run on the Hurd.  There is
> some discussion about it if it should be the native
> interface, or it can be
> something on top of it.  Personally, I think they
> can be implemented in a
> shared library, to which native Hurd applications
> don't link.  "Transitional"
> applications may link to it to use some parts, and
> use parts from the native
> system as well.  The library might become less
> important when more programs
> refrain from using it.

In Towards of New OS Design, The original HURD
designer wrote that Unix look and feel and
compatibility would be inplemented using the glib
layer that i think is not too much diferent.
Native Hurd applications that are not linked to POSIX
layer are not a good idea becouse youre creting a
problem that means native Hurd aplications will be
hard to port to other *UX/*NIX-Like platforms.

> > That is the obvious basis! an enviroinment that
> GCC can compile with a
> > minimum of changes Unix/GNU programs(bash, emacs,
> X-Windows, pico, VI ).
> > Off course extensions are necessary and obviously
> the system should provide
> > new features and enhancements that are not found
> in other Unix Flavours but
> > it is a secoundary step that a system with
> multi-servers running in a top of
> > a microkernel can do easely and a monolithic not.
> So i reinforce the idea
> > that you are working in a GNU Kernel. A Unix-Like
> Kernel that can run Unix
> > like softwares and have a Unix confortable
> enviroinment that is the basis!
> The improvements we are hoping to make are not
> possible if POSIX is the base
> of the system.  However, a POSIX library should be
> no problem at all on the
> system we currently have in mind.  Therefore it
> seems like a good idea to me
> to make POSIX _not_ the *base* of the system, but
> more an extension.
> > So Friends maybe my email can help to clarify a
> bit and you can trust my
> > intention is to be constructive, in a reflection
> basis.
> I appreciate your opinion, and hope that you agree
> with me that POSIX doesn't
> need to be the _basis_ of the system, but it must be
> supported.
> Thanks,
> Bas

I do appreciate your opinion too and really thanks.
But If the whole OS will be build on this basis its
time to stop and say; "That is not more about HURD or
the GNU OS, its about a entire new system that just
provide suport to Unix-like applications".

I suggest to people try to keep in mind Simple ideas,
the features that a multiserver system can bring to an
traditional system are obvious. The idea must be the
most simply as possible. A Unix Clone with Unix/Posix
compatibles multiservers running on top of a
microkernel that dont necessarely knows what kind of
OS flavours are runing on its top.

There is the advantages of device drivers dont running
inside the kernels and each server running protected
each other and another great features that that
architecture can offer.

I understand that a lot of Arcane principles of Unix
that causes troubles of security failures must be
avoided and thats right and are obvious! each system
also must have your all extensions and facilitys. But
if it is a compromisse with the GNU OS runing with a
non Linux kernel the developers needs to remamber the
basis, that is a UNIX Replacement. And Unix and your
standards have proof for years your reability and
robustness despite your architectural problems.
For exemple MINIX 3.0 its a step towards this way 
most of the system was rewrited and what Andrew
Tannembaum did ? Put it most Unix/posix compliant than
previous versions. But that is my opinion.And im not
the project ruller or mantener but as user i think my
opinion are important just emulate Unix with external
librarys is not enough it must be in the basis most
Unix compliant as possibly.

Thanks Marcelo Fortes.


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