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| From: | David Bobroff |
| Subject: | Re: absolute & relative together |
| Date: | Tue, 11 Mar 2008 06:44:05 +0000 |
| User-agent: | Thunderbird 2.0.0.12 (Windows/20080213) |
Reinhold Kainhofer wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Am Dienstag, 11. März 2008 schrieb David Bobroff:Reinhold Kainhofer wrote:If you could describe in a little more detail what you are trying to do (i.e. what are your cue voices, clefs, transposing instruments, etc.), we might be better able to help you come up with the proper solution...Well, specifically, I'm preparing a transposed, or rather de-transposed, tenor tuba part for "Don Quixote" of R. Strauss. The original part is in bass clef but in a Bb transposition. I'm keeping it in bass clef but transposing it down a step.By transposing, do you mean transposing the concert pitch so that instead of a bes and as should sound? Or do you just want to transpose the written pitch (i.e. to as transposition), leaving the concert pitch the same? In the latter case, \transposition and a subsequent \transpose is really what you are looking for.
I'm using \transpose exactly the way I need to. I've entered the notes at their original notation pitch from the original notation part. This is to make error correction easier for me. (I start with \transpose c c and then check the output against the original. Once that's done I change the transposition.) That is working exactly as it is supposed to. As for the particulars of this transposition; the original part is written in bass clef but *not* at sounding pitch but rather a whole step higher than sounding. This is a peculiarity of some tenor tuba parts from at least some Austrian (German, too?) composers. I suspect that this may be due to military bandsmen playing this instrument learned to play from this notation. The instrument itself is in Bb like a trombone, but unlike trombones, which are always notated at concert pitch, it is notated in this case a step higher.
In the first case, shouldn't also all other instruments (and thus also the cue notes) be transposed, because otherwise they would not sound well together...
I'm not preparing a score, only the tenor tuba part.
This is no problem. Furthermore, I'm including all the original cues at their original notated pitches. All the cues are in a separate definition block.Excuse me, but I don't really understand this. Aren't cue notes in scores for transposing instruments also properly transposed? E.g. if you have a score for an instrument in bes (so what looks like a c is actually a bes) and the cue instrument plays a (real) c, where will this note be shown in the score for the Bb instrument? Between the third and fourth line (thus looking like a bes), or on the fourth line?
Not necessarily, and not in this case. I don't have a score to check this in detail, however, I needed a few things checked and I spoke to someone on the phone about some details in the score and the pitches I was given for some of the cues were what was in the score and they matched what was printed in the original part. Also, I have trombone parts to check against trombone cues and the trombone cues are printed at the same pitch as the trombone parts which are at concert pitch. So, the cues in this part are not at the transposition of this instrument. Also, I'm an orchestral trombonist and spend most of my time at work looking at rests and cues. This is common, if not normal. Cues for F horn are often not at sounding pitch but sounding a fifth lower.
You might also take a look at the recent thread: http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2008-03/msg00073.htmlIn my example there, the first line is e.g. violin 1 and plays real c's. The second line is a transposing instrument in f, also playing c's. In the third measure, there is a cue note from the violin (a c''). Where do you want this note to be displayed? Like in the PDF (i,e, at the same staff position as in the violin score, thus looking like an f to the player of the transposing instrument) or at the same pitch as the other c''s for the transposing instrument?I ran into a problem when I decided it would be interesting to also create a Bb Treble clefnotated version while at the same time retaining all the original cues at their original pitches and clefs.Doesn't this also include some key changes to make up for the tranposition? (BTW, are you talking about concert or written pitch?)
Yes. The \transpose takes care of this. I realized that my problem was not a matter of relative vs absolute in the cue notes but that there need to be explicit \clef indications when the cues end so that no matter what clef the main part is in the clefs for all the cues never change even if I want the main part printed in another clef. In this instance I also want to be able to produce a part notated for treble clef as is done in British brass bands as well as to a lesser extent in American bands. It was the clef and *not* relative/absolute that was the problem. For example, coming out of a cue for trombones and tuba back to the main part there is no need for a clef change if the main part (tenor tuba) is also in bass clef. If, however, I want a treble clef notated part for the tenor tuba I need a clef change at the end of the cue. This is working exactly the way I need it to work.
In short, my problem was fixed with more clef changes. Absolute and relative pitch entry was *not* the problem.
-David
Sorry for my ignorance, but I only recently learned about transposing instruments, when I wrote a score for Corni. There, I printed all cue notes also transposed, so that the same sounding note in the cue instrument and the corno score look exactly at the same position. In particular, in my score http://www.fam.tuwien.ac.at/~reinhold/temp/Schubert_StabatMater_D383_CorII.pdf in measure 56 of "Nr.9 Chor" (middle of the second page), the Fag./Tr.3 are actually notated in bass clef in their scores and play b - a - gis - fis (but since the score is in e, the cue notes are displayed as g - f - e - d, which in concert pitch is the correct b-a-gis-fis). Am I wrong here?Cheers, Reinhold- -- - ------------------------------------------------------------------Reinhold Kainhofer, Vienna University of Technology, Austria email: address@hidden, http://reinhold.kainhofer.com/ * Financial and Actuarial Mathematics, TU Wien, http://www.fam.tuwien.ac.at/ * K Desktop Environment, http://www.kde.org, KOrganizer maintainer * Chorvereinigung "Jung-Wien", http://www.jung-wien.at/ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFH1crJTqjEwhXvPN0RAmWoAKC+8R1UNKtJ3WrgtvoI76M8vQbG2ACfUFHV LELhtsZUv3YRQJXzhlf3228= =P7NL -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
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