Re: Open source? -> Need to read source to model?

[Pietro Terna]

        Hi all,

        my opinion is that Swarm users have to know programming techniques, but 
it
is not necessary that they read and understand Swarm source code.

        I think that it is also possible to help people in developing models by
sharing open applications, such as my bp-ct or Ferraris' CW or GM (these
apps are in the anarchy dir).

        Pietro

At 10.28 16/01/00 -0500, you wrote:
>
>I think this raises an interesting and difficult question
>for the future of agent-based modeling as a standard
>technique in scientists' toolkits.
>(I decided to move it to swarm-modelling, since that seems 
>to be a more appropriate place for this issue.)
>
>If I recall correctly, one of the original ideas behind
>Swarm was to come up with a system that would make it
>easier for biologists, economists, anthropologists, political
>scientists, etc, to do experiments with agent-based models.
>Part of the idea was that these people are not
>professional computer programmers, and never will be, and
>to the extent they have to get in and get dirty with source
>codes is a mis-use of their comparative advantage,
>ie., they are spending time 'programming' (in the broad
>sense of that activity, which includes reading complex source codes)
>instead of being biologists, economists or whatever.   
>I think this sentiment has led to the recent
>(and I think very useful) MAML project, for instance.
>
>On the other hand, one would not expect someone to
>be able to make good equation based models if they were
>not at least somewhat mathematically skilled.  
>So why is it not equally reasonable to expect people
>trying to implement computer based models to be at
>least somewhat skilled in the art/craft/science of programming?
>
>As many of you know, I have taugh and continue to teach
>a modeling course (in swarm) to students from a varitey
>of disciplines, most of whom are beginning programmers.
>So in some sense you know where my prior biases fall...
>(I do make grep my friend!)   ...However...
>
>Its not clear to me where the expectations should
>be wrt programming skills and need to read underlying source
>for systems like Swarm to be able to use them.
>Certainly one needs to be able to read the user-level documentation,
>but does the 'typical' modeller really have to read the 
>source codes for the underlying tools?   
>We don't expect people who write models as difference or 
>diffy-equations to be experts in dynamical systems.    
>Is asking them to regularly read the source for Swarm the 
>equivalent of asking them to be expert programmers?
>yes, there may be some cases where they
>might need to if they want to do something non-standard,
>but should that be the norm, as opposed to the exception?
>(just as its the norm to right and use equation-based
>models quite usefully, and only sometimes does one need
>to dig into the theory for those cases where one is
>trying to push what can be typically be done with those
>equations).
>
>Well, where am I going with this?  I don't know!
>It just struck me as not obvious that all people
>using a system like Swarm should be expected to,
>or regularly need to, read the source for Swarm.
>(as I said, reading documentation is a different question...
>which also raises the question of what is adequate
>documentation...for another thread...)
>
>So I just thought I'd raise this issue (which I suspect has
>been kicked around in these lists before) because
>I think the answers are not so obvious (at least not to me),
>and the questions are quite deep (e.g., it raises
>questions about the appropriate conceptual modeling langauge
>for ABMs, and the relationship between that and some
>underlying implementation of the basic elements).
>
>I'm sure there is a broad variety of opinions on
>this out there in the Swarm community...I'd be
>interested in hearing people's reasons for where
>they fall on the spectrum.
>
>- r
>
>Rick Riolo                           address@hidden
>Center for Study of Complex Systems (CSCS)
>4477 Randall Lab                
>University of Michigan         Ann Arbor MI 48109-1120
>Phone: 734 763 3323                  Fax: 734 763 9267
>http://www.pscs.umich.edu/PEOPLE/rlr-home.html
>
>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 22:02:34 +0100
From: Ralf Stephan <address@hidden>
>Reply-To: address@hidden
>To: address@hidden
>Subject: Re: Open source?
>
>Benedikt:
>> I've had this question come up so many times: "Where are the sources for
>> object X?". It is truly bizzare that there are users out there that don't
>> have a copy of the source or even the HTML documentation.
>
>We have a saying in German "Those who can read have a clear advantage".
>I mean, where is the limit?  You can have nice packages, FTP archives,
>FAQs, and even then, people will ask all over again.  And it's not
>their fault, very often they were brainwashed in education with the MS 
>approach of hiding ASCII (in Germany too, of course).
>
>Evolution in action?
> 
>> I think essentially that no one should be using this thing without having
>> a copy of the source code AND the documentation. Looking at source is
>> always the best way to learn. Grep is your friend.
>
>Amen, brother.
>
>
>ralf
>-- 
>http://www.in-berlin.de/User/rws/
>It's all like keeping two or three ants together.
>
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   esp. using Swarm.  For list administration needs (esp. [un]subscribing),
   please send a message to <address@hidden> with "help" in the
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