[Bug-gnubg] Feature requests (Re: Battle of the Bots)

[Albert Silver]

This brings up two issues, and both are feature requests for GNU. The
first is to create a function to allow proposition matches or sessions.
This was actually just asked for in RGB, and was also a feature I
requested back when I sent some proposed GUI changes. It would allow a
user to set up a training position and play it a set number of times, or
as many times as they like, without having to go through any procedures
to start a new game ith it.

The second feature request, though I realize many may not feel too
inclined about it, is to allow one to import and export the Snowie file
formats. At least the Position and Match formats. The reason is
two-fold: here the job of checking for errors with the aid of Snowie is
considerably greater as one must transfer the games by hand. I also have
about 300 positions from Robertie's 501 set up in Snowie's format and
that I would like to run in GNU, however it is daunting as there is no
way to transfer them directly and it would mean setting them all up
manually. I do realzie this last task is not easy as it requires hacking
the Snowie file formats, but it's still something I, and most likely
others, would like, so I had to ask.

                                                Albert

-----Original Message-----
From: address@hidden
[mailto:address@hidden On Behalf Of
Joseph Heled
Sent: Sunday, January 05, 2003 3:42 AM
To: gnubg
Cc: Neil Kaz
Subject: [Bug-gnubg] Re: Battle of the Bots


Attached are 48 games played with gnu ply2. Please comment on the 
mistakes which make it win 10% less games than SN 4. There must be 
several here ...

-Joseph


Neil Kaz wrote:
> My 3ply/precise Snowie rollout has this position as having a cubeless
equity
> of .554 but my new GNU 2-ply rollout has the equity as about .785 and
was
> winning the game 10% less from the backgame player's side.
> 
> I'll run a full 1296 games 2ply overnight since this takes some time (
I did
> 385 games in a couple of hours)
> 
> This is a very straightforward position with all the skill on the
backgame
> player's side and a good test of how well a bot can play a backgame.
> 
> To do this rollout cubeless with GNU I need to do it by clicking on
analyse
> and then rollout (off course after setting the rollout and turning off
> Jacoby rule)
> 
> ..neilkaz..
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joseph Heled" <address@hidden>
> To: "Neil Kaz" <address@hidden>
> Cc: "Albert Silver" <address@hidden>; "'Joern Thyssen'"
> <address@hidden>; "'Øystein Johansen'" <address@hidden>
> Sent: Saturday, January 04, 2003 2:28 PM
> Subject: Re: Battle of the Bots
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Neil Kaz wrote:
> 
>>By all means..I would use the Jacobs MET until someone, like myself
can
> 
> roll
> 
>>out a better one. I trust that you guys will teach me how to make my
own
> 
> MET
> 
>>as I obtain data.
>>
>>I want to use the new GNU version which is supposed to be superior in
>>backgames, but from rollouts I am doing of a very basic backgame where
all
>>the skill is needed on the backgame player's side , it appears to be
FAR
>>behind Snowie 4 or, perhaps I don't have the proper weights installed.
> 
> 
> Can you post the position and Snowie results please? I would not get
too
>   concerned about one specific position, or even several. Also, play
> will be at 2 or 3ply, while rollouts usually are 0ply, and the error
> rate of 2ply (in crashed positions) is about half as far as I can
tell.
> 
> -Joseph
> 
> 
>>I am very confused with this "weight" stuff and wish there was a
simple
> 
> way
> 
>>just to DL everything I need to run GNU at its highest strength.
>>
>>..neilkaz..
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Albert Silver" <address@hidden>
>>To: "'Joern Thyssen'" <address@hidden>; "'Joseph Heled'"
> 
> <address@hidden>;
> 
>>"'Neil Kaz'" <address@hidden>
>>Cc: "'Øystein Johansen'" <address@hidden>
>>Sent: Saturday, January 04, 2003 12:26 PM
>>Subject: Battle of the Bots
>>
>>
>>Hi,
>>
>>As you may have seen (I'm sure Neil has), GammonVillage has
>>begun a series called the Battle of the Bots, in which Snowie,
Jellyfish
>>and GNUBG will play matches. They realize no statistical info can be
>>obtained by this on which bot is stronger, and say so clearly,
however,
>>hope to generate interesting discussions on key positions. The
impartial
>>(cough!) judge of the errors will be Snowie 4's 3-ply analysis. I
asked
>>about the settings, MET, version, and DB that would be used. Obviously
>>this hadn't been considered very deeply so was what I suggested. I
>>should add that they don't know it is me. My suggestion is the Jacobs
>>MET, and a 13 point DB to be built. What about the playing settings?
I'm
>>running on an abysmally slo machine, but if they have decent hardware,
>>then I'd like to make a bold suggestion: some setup of move filters,
>>allowing at least 2-3 moves to be analyzed at GNU's 3-ply.
>>Here is what I've noticed in my experience with analyzing with
>>GNU: it analyzes at least 99% of the time the top 2-3 moves in its
list
>>at 2-ply. It does change it's choice of best move with 3-ply a few
>>times. I can't estimate a percentage. The 3-ply evaluation is almost
>>always the same as its rollouts. Even the errors pointed out by Snowie
4
>>(and GNU points out errors by Snowie 4 too BTW) are corrected
invariably
>>by its 3-ply. So: can anyone suggest a top-level 3-ply play (maybe
only
>>analyzing 2-3 moves at 3-ply) that would be about the same speed as
>>Snowie 4's 3-ply which is very slow. They plan to use Snowie 4 in the
>>contest later, so that is the limit of the acceptable.
>>I can't even test this properly on my laptop, to which I'm
>>confined until I get a new motherboard, otherwise I would. Also could
>>you give me the exact script to develop the 13-point DB as well as the
>>expected size?
>>
>>Albert
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: address@hidden
>>[mailto:address@hidden On Behalf Of
>>Joern Thyssen
>>Sent: Saturday, January 04, 2003 2:21 PM
>>To: Neil Kaz
>>Cc: Øystein Johansen; GnuBg Bug (E-mail)
>>Subject: Re: [Bug-gnubg] Re: Long GNU rollout results
>>
>>On Sat, Jan 04, 2003 at 10:40:36AM -0600, Neil Kaz wrote
>>
>>
>>>Thx everyone..I want to perfectly understand what GNU is doing in
>>
>>rollouts
>>
>>
>>>and how/why it is presenting the data like this. I hope to be 100%
>>
>>certain
>>
>>
>>>that GNU is doing everything like it is supposed. ..ie perfectly
>>
>>evaluating
>>
>>
>>>the plays and cubes according to match score.
>>
>>
>>gnubg always evaluate plays and cube according the current score and
>>cube in rollouts.
>>
>>Jørn
>>
>>
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>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
> 
>