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Re: [Chicken-users] Re: Integrating unit tests into source code

From: Brandon J. Van Every
Subject: Re: [Chicken-users] Re: Integrating unit tests into source code
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 15:49:25 -0800
User-agent: Thunderbird (Windows/20061025)

Peter Bex wrote:
On Thu, Dec 14, 2006 at 05:59:23AM -0800, Brandon J. Van Every wrote:
I don't really understand this part.

   The   point  is,  you  can  use  LGPL  code  as  "starter  code,"  and
   incrementally  transform  it,  until  you  have  only  BSD  code.  The
   incrementality  is  important.   Some  licenses  will prevent you from
   doing that.

I didn't know that was allowed.

Of course it's allowed.  Delete code from the LGPL library.  Add *your own* equivalent functionality somewhere else in your app, either above the LGPL library, or beside it.  You just can't use their code, you have to write your own from scratch.  But you could do this gradually over a long period of time, using the LGPL library as scaffolding that gets gradually whittled down.

  Also, I think the legal issues would be complicated.  

No, it is not complicated at all.  The only way it can be complicated, is if you're not writing your own new BSD code, but stealing the LGPL code.  Clearly, the LGPL exists so that it can be used in conjunction with proprietary licensed code.  No court is going to say, "Well you have to implement that functionality in the LGPL library, because they were there first and it looked like a good infrastructure to do it with."  You can throw out 99% of a LGPL library if you want to, and just keep one function.  You're still going to have to provide a .dll for that 1 function, and its source code.  There is no restriction in a LGPL that you must somehow "keep the integrity and functionality of the work."

Some other licenses do have such restrictions.  That's why I said, LGPL is an acceptable "scaffolding" license as compared to other licenses.

Think USL vs. BSDi and the recent SCO vs. IBM.  Where does
the code come from, and who is to know for sure?
I wouldn't want to go anywhere near that.

Not the same issue.  Here, the issue is proprietary code polluting BSD code.  Whereas the FSF is *never* going to sue anyone for modifying LGPL code.  That's what they *want* people to do, it's what they *believe* in.  They're only gonna sue if you copy LGPL code and don't license it LGPL.

Also, in practice, you really think Chicken is a legal target?  Hardly.  Even Linux was gazonkers popular for many years before it was worth someone's time to try to sue over license pollution.  By that time, I assure you, any crappy LGPL contract starter code will have long since been whittled away beyond recognition.

An breach of contract means either your design has failed or the caller or
callee contains a bug in the code.  You don't "deal with errors", you
let it crash and burn, then you inspect the pieces to see what went
wrong.  It's not just an exception that signals "something went wrong,
I can't perform this operation" to the caller, it's an actual fault in
the code.

How do you know you've specified it right?  I'd say, you don't, until it has failed a few times.  Which gets back to the question of changing designs.

   Oops.   The  problem,  in  my point of view, is that you Unix guys are
   always setting up mailing lists to be "Reply To Sender."

"you Unix guys"?  Could you please use a milder tone?  We're all Chicken
users here :)

I was ribbing Felix as the listowner, and YES he is a Unix guy, not a Windows guy.  And as far as I'm concerned, if your Chicken build isn't MinGW, Cygwin, or MSVC, you're a Unix guy.  Well, you could be a MacOS guy I suppose, which from a UI standpoint is a helluva lot better than being a Unix guy.

Actually, I have set up mutt to reply to the list.  It also sets the
proper headers so other threaded clients can see the mail is a reply
to the original mail.

I wonder if Thunderbird can be so clever.  Well, looks like it will be soon, but not now.


Starting a flamewar about Unix vs. Windows is not appropriate here.

So don't.  I didn't.  That is, I couldn't possibly expect anyone to take this stuff so seriously.

   This  is  all  religion  about how mail
   clients should be implemented.    Unixers  go  for  the  traditions
   peculiar  to  their  historical  mail  clients.   Windozers  go for
   what makes sense to the common  man;  "Reply"  means "send it back to
   where it came from."  We subscribe to a list, things come from the
   list, we send things back to the list.

A nice enough idea in theory, but this won't always work.  Lots of lists
just leave the original sender in the From header, so a naive non
list-aware mailclient's 'reply' function would ignore the list entirely.

Ah well.  Technology sucks, and then you die.

   I  will  wager,  furthermore,  that  a default of Reply-To-Author is a
   relic  of  a  time  when  net  curmudgeons  didn't  want  you "wasting
   everyone's  time"  with your idle chit-chat.  Force you to think about
   replying  to  the  entire  group,  the entire world community, all the
   resources wasted on all those servers, oh my!

We were having a nice discussion about testing and contracts in Chicken.
Please don't spoil that by allowing it to degenerate into a Windows/Unix
flame fest.

Methinks thou dost protest too much!

PS I hope I haven't offended.  I just would like this list to remain

I find the easiest way to do that, is not to look for an offense.

Brandon Van Every

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