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Re: [Discuss-gnuradio] costas ambiguity and correlate-and-sync block in
Re: [Discuss-gnuradio] costas ambiguity and correlate-and-sync block in qpsk
Tue, 29 Mar 2016 23:48:21 +0000
I like the "GMSK 9600" approach you mentioned - certainly will be looking into
it. in the meanwhile I attached my flow graph. The debug folder has the input
and output files.
0xFC0C3 is the sync word as can be seen in "stream_helloWorld". I use Bless to
generate the binaries but any hex editor would work I imagine.
changing sps from =2 to =8 changes corr (as expected), so generating corr
symbols with a "matched" modulator seems like the way to go.
changing threshold from 0.3 to say 0.5 forces a tag only on that first ultra
high spike (30k or so). but 0.3 has the same spike, just more tags follow
(which is encouraging).
Tried bypassing the channel sim, power squelch, AGC, FLL directly into the
corr_est block in case the blocks change the symbols in an unpredictable way -
nothing seems to be off.
As the ultimate check I usually loop the input file ("packet" if you will) and
compare it at the Rx. "Hello World" pops here and there but not often enough to
start considering BER testing for now.. costas output flips by 90*
finally, the gui plots are not in the order of the signal chain but are labeled
properly. Hopefully easy to follow.
And thanks again!
From: Andy Walls address@hidden
Sent: Friday, March 25, 2016 6:45 PM
To: Landsman, Arik
Subject: Re: [Discuss-gnuradio] costas ambiguity and correlate-and-sync block
On Fri, 2016-03-25 at 22:14 +0000, Landsman, Arik wrote:
> Hi Andy,
> I gave it a few more touches since we last spoke, but to no avail...
> Costas still flips sporadically on a simulated channel.
> Generally the corr_est block would show a large spike in |corr|^2 on
> the very first packet I send (>1600), but on all subsequent loops
> (same packet) the value diminishes to ~100 with multiple peaks.
That doesn't seem right.
> I tried various preamble formats and sizes, including an 8 byte long
> version to avoid any possible corr with payload. corr^2 certainly
> changes but results in either multiple peaks at low levels (say 100
> and 140), or with a huge spike at start as mentioned.
> I can generate tags by reducing the threshold to extremely low values
> (say 0.1, 0.3), which I suppose makes sense with the delta between the
> first and subsequent spike levels.
> In either case there are more than one tag generated per packet as the
> packet loops. Only one preamble per packet, non repeating.
> matched filter taps - can the corr_est block accept taps in any way?
The idea with corr_est is to give it exactly the reference samples that
you are looking to match against.
That usually means building them with one of the gnuradio modulator
blocks *and* discarding the the initial samples which are a transient
emitted during the initial delay of the gnuradio particular modulator.
Look at the GRC file I just posted to the list regarding "GMSK 9600
baud". I had a modulator build the preamble samples. I had to add in a
few flush/fill bits at the end of the preamble, which never get emitted
by the modulator. I had to discard the initial transient emitted by the
> I'd like to hold sps=8 at least for the time being, and without a
> filter there is little correlation between the stream and the
> reference preamble. sps=2 was too low for timing recovery without a
> preamble. what do you generally use? (btw all of the debug above was
> with sps=2).
I use sps=10 with low data rate stuff.
> I am told I've been loosing sleep over this.. in any case I'll keep
> trying but in the meanwhile if you had any comments I would deeply
> appreciate it.
If you have a flowgraph that you could share that simulates the input,
I'd would probably be easier for me to see what's wrong about the
> Many Thanks,
> From: Landsman, Arik
> Sent: Monday, March 14, 2016 11:59 AM
> To: Andy Walls; address@hidden
> Subject: RE: [Discuss-gnuradio] costas ambiguity and correlate-and-sync block
> in qpsk
> Hi Andy,
> Thank you for the detailed answer, I am certainly going to try what you
> suggest in the next couple of days. will post with updates as progressing
> As a side, I tried to hack the corr_and_sync block using a preamble which in
> BPSK looks the same as both I and Q of the QPSK data (e.g. [1,-1] in bpsk is
> [1+j,-1-j] in qpsk). This does not quite work in practice, I was getting
> sinusoids with very weak correlation (amplitude in 30's 40's) from the corr
> port. Strange, since the block should ignore the imaginary portion of the
> stream anyways since designed for BPSK.
> in terms of a clock pattern for preamble, looks like Barker codes is the way
> to go, at least statistically speaking for low correlation with any random
> "preamble-like" bit combinations in the payload. So avoiding clock patterns
> for sure.
> Will look to tag the end of preamble, from your comments it appears to be the
> more universal approach. In my case freq lock should be fairly good though,
> channel is largely stationary, and I am using a FLL (although it does require
> longer bit combinations that are to result in a balanced spectrum to detect
> band edges). point well noted though.
> You mentioned M&M for timing recovery, have you tried the Polyphase block?
> without passing tags, I had better results with the latter for whatever
> reason. MM is more efficient though as I read.
> Just to clarify, were you capturing the time_est tags, or just relying on a
> combination of phase_est for costas and MM converging fast enough ahead of
> finally, would you know of any good references for passing tags in gnuradio?
> I will certainly search around, but in case anything comes to mind (?)
> Best Regards,
> P.S. - In case it helps future causes - see "Phase-ambiguity resolution for
> QPSK modulation systems" by Nguyen, Tien Manh, NASA, 1989. Part1 outlines the
> basic two approaches for correcting phase, which are diff encoding or
> preamble correlation. The preamble algorithm there is very much similar to
> the one Andy describes, although likely implemented as an IC (aka ASSP). In
> this case the author suggests diff encoding for burst transmissions, since
> bits are wasted on a preamble (which theoretically has 2x BER compared to
> diff encoding).
> That said, if phase rotation occurs in mid-payload the full packet is lost,
> unless some form of post-processing is used to recover - so at higher SNR
> diff encoding is possibly better. But I am yet to find a publication that
> compares real data on the topic.
> From: Andy Walls address@hidden
> Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2016 8:51 AM
> To: address@hidden
> Cc: Landsman, Arik
> Subject: Re: [Discuss-gnuradio] costas ambiguity and correlate-and-sync block
> in qpsk
> On Sun, 2016-03-13 at 01:35 -0500, address@hidden
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2016 21:34:03 +0000
> > From: "Landsman, Arik"
> > Hello folks,
> > I am trying to resolve the 90* ambiguity of costas for a QPSK
> > receiver, and was hoping folks could weigh-in in case anyone had
> > success with this in the past.
> > yes, diff encoding works.. :) trying to make it work without though.
> > Also, I had seen Tom R's example of his cor-and-sync block
> > implementation in BPSK (but not qpsk). maybe the block could be
> > "hacked" to support qpsk, such as by passing the preamble as bpsk but,
> > say, upsampling the block to make the generated complex reference
> > align with the incoming qpsk stream. going to try this when I get home
> > tonight.
> > Since Trx will be bursty and will use a preamble anyways, another
> > thought was to correlate the stream with the 4 possible versions of
> > the preamble (i.e. constellation rotations), and pass the best
> > candidate downstream to select the proper constell object for demod
> > (as opposed to adjusting costas, as in cor-and-sync block), or use the
> > result for post-processing the incorrectly demodulated data. But both
> > seem a bit indirect or wastefull..
> > Any thoughts?
> Using a preamble makes sense to me.
> Do not use the correlate_and_sync block; it is unreliable and provides
> and errant "phase_est" value.
> Use the corr_est block; it does correctly and more generically what the
> correlate_and_sync block aimed to do.
> To use the corr_est block:
> 1. Generate a vector of samples which represents your preamble. A
> test_corr_est.grc file can be found here:
> which should give an example of how to use gnuradio modulator blocks to
> build the preamble samples vector for you. You could also use, pyhton,
> Matlab, octave, or whatever.
> 2. Tell the corr_est block where on the preamble you want it to place
> the tags. You must give the tag delay in units of samples. Common
> choices are:
> a. start of preamble
> b. middle of first symbol after start of preamble
> c. middle of last symbol before end of preamble
> d. end of preamble
> 3. The corr_est block outputs the following tags:
> corr_start: that start of your preamble
> corr_est: the absolute value of the correlation squared
> phase_est: the phase offset between the reference preamble and the
> received preamble at the sample corresponding to the correlation peak
> (which happens at the end of the preamble).
> time_est: the fractional sample delay from the sample that is at the
> correlation peak to where the actual coorelation peak (which happens in
> between samples)
> 4. If you are well synchronized in frequency, you can just apply the
> phase_est correction to the whole burst with a phase rotation by
> multiplying the burst by exp(1.0j*-phase_est_value), IIRC.
> If you are not well synchronized in frequency, the phase_est value is
> only sensible to apply at the samples at the end of the preamble.
> But that's enough to resync a tracking loop.
> 5. Modify your downstream blocks to look for the above tags, and reset
> their state as appropriate, to acquire and maintain synchronization.
> 6. BTW, avoid a preamble that has a clock pattern (1010101010..). It
> causes duplicate correlation peaks (which you then have to inspect the
> corr_est tag for the highest value), and the M&M clock recovery block
> really drifts off such preambles badly for some reason.
> > Thank you in advance,
> > Arik
- Re: [Discuss-gnuradio] costas ambiguity and correlate-and-sync block in qpsk, Andy Walls, 2016/03/13
- Re: [Discuss-gnuradio] costas ambiguity and correlate-and-sync block in qpsk, Landsman, Arik, 2016/03/14
- Re: [Discuss-gnuradio] costas ambiguity and correlate-and-sync block in qpsk, Landsman, Arik, 2016/03/25
- Re: [Discuss-gnuradio] costas ambiguity and correlate-and-sync block in qpsk, Andy Walls, 2016/03/25
- Re: [Discuss-gnuradio] costas ambiguity and correlate-and-sync block in qpsk,
Landsman, Arik <=
- Re: [Discuss-gnuradio] costas ambiguity and correlate-and-sync block in qpsk, Andy Walls, 2016/03/30
- Re: [Discuss-gnuradio] costas ambiguity and correlate-and-sync block in qpsk, Landsman, Arik, 2016/03/31
- Re: [Discuss-gnuradio] costas ambiguity and correlate-and-sync block in qpsk, Andy Walls, 2016/03/31