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Re: GUI without X11 / Artist Help
From: |
Jesse Ross |
Subject: |
Re: GUI without X11 / Artist Help |
Date: |
Tue, 8 Feb 2005 21:16:30 -0600 |
On Feb 8, 2005, at 6:50 PM, Nicolas Roard wrote:
Le 8 févr. 05, à 21:09, Olivier Migeot a écrit :
Le Mardi 8 Février 2005 21:17, jesse@jesseross.com a écrit :
As another direction (and maybe this is going too far or me being
more of
a designer than a programmer), but would it be possible to do PNG/JPG
mockups of what we'd like to see as the future direction of the GUI
(per
the competition I mentioned earlier), pull the best features and
ideas,
and use that as the template for building the components we would
need?
Doing mockups before the actual thing is, IMHO, really important
indeed.
Yes, as much as possible, we should do mockups, that's a quite evident
:-)
What needs to be done to begin a UI competition? There will obviously
have to be two competitions: one for Classic (NEXTSTEP) and one for
Modern. There should be a clear definition of what controls need to be
implemented, and how they will be presented. Maybe similar to the
format used on http://www.resexcellence.com/themes/ but modified to
take into account the GNUstep controls.
Also, a compilation of all the HIG that have been written for the
environment should be made, and placed in a visible location on the
website for potential UI contest designers. I'll do whatever I can to
help manage this -- is there already someone in charge of determining
HIG I should get in contact with?
Now
that we're talking about GNUstep look, I'd like to put a few things...
As some of us stated before, there are some people that enjoy the
current
GNUstep look. And there are people wanting things to change. It's very
unlikely that one group will manage to convince the other.
Probably true, yes.
Definitely true -- same reason WinXP has a Win2000 look-alike mode.
So I think there
should be (at least) two themes bundled with GNUstep:
* the nextish look we all now. But I don't think it should be the
default one,
it should be more something like a "tribute to NeXT" theme.
I think it should be a first-class citizen, not just a tribute..
ie, applications should look ok with both themes.
Totally agree. Both need to comply with one set of HIG. This does lead
to twice as much work, but there will likely be themers involved in
pushing each side. Let's just not lead to any type of split and agree
that each interface has its (potential) merits.
* some new one. And I think some discussion (and mockups, and maybe
even a
design contest) is highly needed for this to succeed. So I'll try to
throw
some raw ideas, do what you want with it:
First, I think we should clearly define what is covered by a "theme".
IMHO, it
should at least describe controls, titlebars, menus and font.
Probably icons,
too.
Ok, here I step in... Camaelon lets you redefine any widgets; at the
moment, a Camaelon
theme include all the pixmaps needed to draw widgets. Including icons
in the theme
works too, even if using IconKit would be better (ie, if you put the
icons in the theme, it will
work; but Camaelon should use IconKit on top of that).
About the fonts, it's a good idea.. but it's a bit difficult to do
that properly (should you bundle
the fonts with the theme ? but in that case, you'll have a problem
either with xlib or art..)
Then, if we want to bring a "NEWstep" (bad pun intended) theme, we
should
brought up some "visual identity" for GNUstep, i.e. some things that
would
unlikely change even if we decide to change the default theme. The
goal is
that someone seeing GNUstep on a friend's computer or - even better -
in a
movie (let's dream a bit, will ya?) could recognize it quickly and
tell "hey,
I know that thing, it's GNUstep, it's so cool, ...". It's more or
less like a
brand.
I entirely agree ! we can, with Camaelon, support themes. That's fine
and all, it will
probably help attracting users, it will perhaps also help for
Windows.. but we shouldn't
just say "choose whatever you want..". We need a good default theme.
At the moment
it's the NeXT theme.
The NeXT theme is *extremely* well done, but has two problems; first,
the gamma
-- it needs a properly configured display. Second, it looks a bit
ancient.. and the icons
we have at the moment don't really help here -- that's why we started
with quentin
the icon's effort.
So yes, I believe we should keep it, but we should have another theme,
more
modern-looking.
And this other theme should ideally be some kind of continuity of the
NeXT theme,
not a playskool or aqua-like theme. If users wants playskool themes
they will have
Camaelon anyway. But we need something that people can associate with
GNUstep
(..in a *good* way ;-)
I see the relationship similar to Mac OS Platinum -> Mac OS X Brushed
Metal. Many of the elements/widgets/components changed simply to make
use of the advances in technology. There needs to be a clear definition
of what makes the NEXTSTEP interface what it is: things like vertical
menu bar, left side scroll, dock, detachable menus. Anything else that
defines the interface that should be a must in the Modern interface?
Anything currently there that seems extraneous or against popular
Human-Computer Interaction Laws? With an update in interface, we should
also look at increasing usability wherever possible.
Some exemple of a "visual identity", according to my personal taste,
so you're
all free to think it's crap:
* Grey is important. I know "outside" people are criticizing the grey
touch a
lot, but I think it's the first thing you notice about it. "Hey, that
thing
is ... grey, isn't it?". Most of modern computer GUIs are using white
things, so it would be a nice way to "think different". And keeping
grey
controls would allow us to make icons more important, by making them
much
more colourful.
I agree. Gray is good. Jacky users don't like that, but we don't care;
more people
will prefer a readable theme (that was exactly what a guy in his 50-60
told me last
year at the fosdem -- what he liked with gnustep was the clean and
resting look).
Furthermore, I don't think "gray" is the problem -- just look at
Apple's metal UI !
The problem is more with the widgets' shape and look than with a gray
tonality :-)
Grey is a good backdrop for any icon -- as long as the interface
doesn't get dull or monotone. This can be mostly prevented with icons,
though.
* The controls are maybe a bit too square, but maybe we shouldn't
make them
round like an Apple. There should be some compromise.
I think we should have more round shapes. We need a good balance.
* Different kinds of fonts may be used, like in a typed text: "sans
serif"
fonts for captions, "serif" ones for longer text, and fixed weight
one for
console text (for example).
well, that's already easily doable (just play with Preferences.app),
it's more
a question of fonts availability and standard defaults..
Those were just examples, but I really think we should build some set
of rules
like this.
Just a last word about the fonts: I think a theme should be bound to
a set of
font. The Vera set may be the best fit, since it high quality and
opensource
compliant. But I'm not sure whether it's providing asian character
sets,
which can be a problem for a "default" font.
Well, it's not easy to bind a font with a theme... GNUstep works with
the PostScript
name, not the font by itself.. I don't know..
thanks,
--
Nicolas Roard
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
-Arthur C. Clarke
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- Re: GUI without X11 / Artist Help, (continued)
RE: GUI without X11 / Artist Help, Adam Fedor, 2005/02/08
Re: GUI without X11 / Artist Help, jesse, 2005/02/08
Re: GUI without X11 / Artist Help, Olivier Migeot, 2005/02/08
Re: GUI without X11 / Artist Help, Alex Perez, 2005/02/08
Re: GUI without X11 / Artist Help, Uli Kusterer, 2005/02/15