Re: Clash of the Titans, GNUstep alongside GNOME

[Rogelio M. Serrano Jr.]

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On 2005-11-27 00:34:58 +0800 Richard Frith-Macdonald
<richard@brainstorm.co.uk> wrote:

> On 26 Nov 2005, at 15:27, Nicolas Roard wrote:
>
> > On 11/26/05, Rogelio M. Serrano Jr. <rogelio@smsglobal.net> wrote:
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> > > On 2005-11-26 14:22:25 +0800 Thom Cherryhomes
> > > <thom.cherryhomes@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > > it is worth noting that YES, a colour change would go part of the 
> > > > way
> > > > to avoid the clash, but it doesn't solve some of the
> > > > (1) the BIG APPICON THAT DOESN'T FIT ANYWHERE
> > >
> > > Of course its not intended to live in a taskbar nor is it aware of
> > > taskbars. Its meant to be big so you see it. a lot of small icons in
> > > taskbar can become confusing. Same as the windows taskbar with 20
> > > small icons. I just cant find what im looking for.
> >
> > The point is, it's perfectly fine if you're running WindowMaker, 
> > but it
> > should disappear in *any* other situation / window managers / desktop
> >
> > For example, I'm using a "gnustep" desktop, but at the moment I use
> > Metacity + GWorkspace + GWorkspace shelf. Damn, huge stupid icons
> > clashing with my "OPENSTEP 4" setup.. :-)

I dont know how that looks like. I think at somepoint next was
thinking of using a "shelf". I like the next appicon style more
though.

> > Of course that's the same problem if you want to run a GNUstep app
> > (say, GNUMail) within KDE or GNOME.
> >
> > Basically, the appicon should disappear with other windowmanagers.
>
> I think you should have the OPTION of having the app icon disappear 
> (actually, I thought you already did ... but perhaps it's gone or 
> doesn't 
> work reliably).  I don't believe it should do it by  default ... the 
> icon is 
> too useful for that.
>
> I also think it would be nice to have an app which would manage 
> appicons 
> (sort of like a dock ... a panel containing the appicons of  all 
> running 
> gnustep apps and allowing you to organize/manage them  when running 
> in a 
> gnustep-hostile window manager).
>
> I don't know if you have used the windows backend recently, but it 
> now pops 
> up an alert panel the first time you use an app, which asks  whether 
> you want 
> to use GNUstep/NeXTstep style window borders and  appicons or native 
> window 
> borders and the taskbar.  This then sets  user defaults accordingly 
> (and 
> doesn't ask again unless you remove  the user defaults).  It also 
> inserts 
> something in the standard info  panel to let you call up this option 
> again if 
> you change your mind.
>
> To my mind, this is a thoroughly good thing ... and should probably 
> be done 
> by the X backends too.
> It keeps the standard default look and feel.
> It lets you easily change to work with the 'native' environment
> it doesn't keep intruding once you have set things up
> It's easy to change your mind later
>
> > - first, people trying GNUstep apps will likely do it first in their
> > usual environment;
> > if GNUstep apps play well with it, it can be an incentive for them to
> > really try
> > a GNUstep desktop (if they don't play well, it'll be more "hm, not
> > really interesting, move on, nothing to see")
> > - second, even you are probably running other X11 apps (mozilla,
> > firefox.. ?) within your GNUstep desktop; better integration will
> > help.. and if we provide *good* apps (imho what we should try to
> > harvest, that's another thing that bring users ;-) it's likely that a
> > sizeable fraction of people will want to run them alongside their
> > normal desktop, and won't want to switch completely to WindowMaker --
> > eg just for run GNUMail, even if GNUMail is excellent... and more
> > GNUstep apps used overall will improve our situation, even if they
> > aren't run "within a gnustep desktop"

more i think about it... yeah i can agree thats a good thing.

> > - third, we *NEED* the integration anyway, because I don't think 
> > you can
> > actually achieve anything on GNUstep/Windows if those integration
> > problems aren't
> > fixed -- it will be difficult to convaince all Windows users to 
> > switch
> > to a GNUstep desktop, don't you think ? And fixing those on Windows
> > (ie providing the right
> > options / hooks) will help (or will solve) the possible integration
> > problems with KDE/GNOME.
>
> Yes ... but I suspect people are worried and overreact to the 
> suggestions of 
> changing things ... of course we DON'T want to change  things to 
> remove all 
> that's good about the NEXT designed GUI, but  that's what it often 
> sounds 
> like when people start complaining about  lack of 'integration' with 
> a 
> 'native' interface.

Yup thats why im wary of the "portability thing". Native look is
already too much portability.

> This is why I'm concerned that we should -
> 1. keep the current interface as default
> 2. provide themes for the other interfaces
> 3. make switching VERY easy
> 4. try to make things interoperate as well as possible even when we 
> are not 
> using themes to make things match.

Portability just cant be ignored. I think i have to pause do a bit of
backtracking.

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