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Re: Re[2]: Objective-C 2.0 and other new features in Leopard

From: David Chisnall
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Objective-C 2.0 and other new features in Leopard
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 18:48:16 +0000

Hi Manuel,

I think Thom's comments are a little harsh, but I have to concur with the underlying idea behind them. I am not exactly an Objective-C neophyte - around 20K lines of code in the Étoilé repository are my contribution and I have no problems digging through the -gui source to find why my code isn't working - but I have twice tried and failed to use GSWeb.

I don't mind the lack of a GUI WOBuilder clone. I'm quite happy designing HTML templates by hand (in fact, I'd probably prefer to), but I can't without the slightest hint of documentation. I have read the WO and GSW class documentation, but it doesn't really make sense without some kind of overview and I can't apply the WO documentation to GSW because the build and deployment environments are too different.

With GNUstep, I can come from the Cocoa documentation, read the GNUstep Make documentation, and immediately be able to produce command- line tools. I can read a Gorm tutorial, and then easily map anything that the OS X tutorials say about IB and apply that to GNUstep. Note that Gorm and GNUstep Make are the two parts of GNUstep that I consider the weakest, and yet they STILL compare favourably to GSW in terms of approachability.

I find GNUstepWeb to be a source of incredible amounts of frustration. Looking at things like SOGO and other WebObjects applications make it seem so tantalising, and yet it is always slightly out of reach. I don't have WebObjects 4.5 and I don't even have a way of getting hold of a copy. Neither do many other people. If the only way of using GSW is to have prior experience with an 8- year-old piece of proprietary software that cost $699 on release then it probably already has all of the users it ever will and has no future other than to fade into obscurity which seems like a colossal waste. If someone who knows GNUstepWeb well would just spend the two or three hours required to write an introductory tutorial, its usefulness would be increased dramatically.

I suggest any GSW developers read this:


It's close to the bottom of the barrel when it comes to good tutorials, but it was enough to pick up Seaside and start producing applications with it. GSW doesn't even seem to have something of this quality.


On 23 Nov 2007, at 18:22, Thom Cherryhomes wrote:


Gee, your responses are one hell of a cop-out.

What about for those of us who don't have an 8 year old copy of
WebObjects 4.5 to start off with? tough shit?

again, tools for your own little world, and I'm of the opinion that
the code should just be removed from the GNUstep tree because of its
sheer uselessness to everyone except a few who have tools that ARE NOT


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