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Re: Changes I've been thinking of...

From: Sergii Stoian
Subject: Re: Changes I've been thinking of...
Date: Fri, 09 Oct 2009 19:42:08 +0300
User-agent: Opera Mail/10.00 (Win32)

On Fri, 09 Oct 2009 18:33:35 +0300, Michael Thaler <address@hidden> wrote:

Hi all,

In my strong opinion our target audience could be:
- NeXTSTEP/OPENSTEP users who misses NS/OS look, feel and user experience
in general (I'm one of them);

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NeXT: Sales of the NeXT computers were
relatively limited, with estimates of about 50,000 units shipped in total.

OK, there is also OpenStep, so lets say there were about 100.000
NeXTSTEP/Openstep users in total. How many of these people really miss the
NS/OS look, feel and user experience?

I dont really know, but if it is 10% percent, it is about 10.000 Users.
Probably it is less then that. I don't think that it makes any sense to focus
on this group.

Michael, I've never touched NeXT hardware. But I tried to use OPENSTEP on x86
and loved it. Long before it I tried WindowMaker - same feelings.

- technical people who loves WindowMaker;

I used to use WindowMaker a long time ago. But frankly WindowMaker is just outdated and looks dull.

Because it has professional look and feel. I don't like any theme for Qt or GTK+.
All of them looks like Christmas tree it's become bothering over time.
Did you noticed how changed MacOS interface over time?

Finally maybe you want Leopard look of GNUstep applications as default? At least
it's not outdated and dull, right? ;)

There are probably still people using WindowMaker, but how many?

WindowMaker is window manager, it's not DE. People tend to use desktop environment.

- researchers, students who can use GNUstep as basement for it's works.

There has been a version of Mathematica for Nextstep. There was the lighthouse sweet. There are basically no scientific applications for Gnustep. I did a Ph.
D. in physics and I doubt very much that lots of researchers will be
interested in gnustep, at least at its current state.

What are they interested in? Let me guess: Qt(KDE) or GTK(GNOME)?

I know lots of physicists who own MacBooks (including me). They like MacOS X. But I really doubt that many of them would use MacOS X if it would look like

So we need MacOS style GUI, right?

2. Stop chasing MacOS functionality. Let's set our target to for example
MacOS 10.5 for a several years.
    In other words - polish and finish current implementation.

I think gnustep should definitivly adopt improvments made by MacOS X,
especially Objective C 2.0 and the garbage collector. There are several
reasons for this:

First there are many open source applications for MacOS X which could be
ported to gnustep. If gnustep does not adopt changes / improvements from MacOS
X this will be even harden then it is today.

It's never ending story, you know.

Second, there are many books for learning programming on the Mac, but there are none for gnustep. I think it makes gnustep much more attractive to new
developers if there are useful books.


Third: noone wants to write cross-plattform applications (for Cocoa  and
gnustep) if gnustep lacks many of the features of Cocoa.

If GNUstep will have 10.5 (or even 10.3) compatible implementation developers could write apps for GNUstep knowing these limitations. Trying to implement new
cool features makes GNUstep visible as always buggy and unfinished. Why you
want to see happy developers of applications? Even me while trying to develop ProjectCenter facing stability and 'it's not working like before anymore' problems.
What can I say about side developers?

Another day Apple discards GCC in favor of LLVM. We need to quickly adopt this
change after Apple? That's why GNUstep in it's current state today.

6. Create working destop environment for developers at least. Some day I
realized that I'm working

I second that. As long as there is no desktop environment people can actually use, almost nobody will use gnustep applications. And without users it will be
really hard to get new developers.


What stops me from using gnustep (etoile) as a desktop is that there is no browser. In my opinion gnustep / etoile really needs a good browser using webkit or gecko (SimpleWebkit might be nice to work on but I don't think it
will be good enough. Even khtml is not good enough for lots of people).

And I see no problem using Opera or Firefox. That is the problem I'm trying
to attract attention: GNUstep developers always ready to start mega-projects
but only few individuals trying to make GNUstep finished.


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Sergii Stoian

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