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Re: Changes I've been thinking of...

From: Jamie Ramone
Subject: Re: Changes I've been thinking of...
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2009 15:31:26 -0300

On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 2:50 PM, Michael Thaler
<address@hidden> wrote:
> Hi,
>> Except I wasn't talking about code development with objc, I was
>> talking about making apps that are far more usable without necessarily
>> doing much more work to achieve this goal. The fact that those other
> First of all, applications written by scientists / researchers are usually not
> written to be useable, but to solve a specific problem. Second, useable is
> quite subjective. I doubt that a GNUstep application is more useable for
> anyone having 10 years of experience with Windows-like user interfaces.

I didn't say anything about scientists, but users in general. And
usability may be subjective, but not that much. Just google Jakob
Nielsen. Interface engineering exists since Macintosh does.

>> systems you mentioned are "good enough" is because people don't know
>> any better. They don't  have as much information on alternative GUIs.
>> Apple's is known, but not well known. And both Gnome and KDE are
>> basically Windows clones (interface-wise)
> Sorry, I really detest this elitist view. Do you have any case studies that
> Nextstep/Openstep is more useable then say Snow Leopard. I doubt it.

I wasn't being elitist, just pointing out a fact: not many people know
alternative GUIs. This comes from Windows having such a large portion
of the desktop market. And Those who use a GNU/Linux system usually
have a KDE or Gnome interface which look remarkably like Windows. Thus
people seem to be accustom to that type of interface because that's
all they really know.

>> This is bullshit. The fact that the world has changed and new things
>> are hard to get out the door is just your own point of view. Getting
>> people to embrace a "new" concept as GNUstep just depends on how you
>> do it and how much work you're willing to put into it. That being
>> said, The whole NeXT interface was built to be as usable as possible,
>> and one of it's well known advantages is that it's easy to learn.
> Well, I am quite sure people at Microsoft will tell you the Windows interface
> was build to be as useable as possible. If you ask someone at Apple they will
> tell you there user interface is designed to be useable and the GNOME people
> will tell you all about their great usability even if you don't ask them.

Get real, Windows was built to compete with Macintosh. GNOME wasn't
BUILT to be as usable as possible, but has improved over the years. Of
all the desktops out there, Apple is the only one that actually does
usability research, just about everyone else works on assumptions.

> And if you think it is bullshit that it is hard to get new things out of the
> door, why did GNUstep not attract users / developers? Why are about 98% of the
> desktop systems worldwide
> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_desktop_operating_systems) using
> a Windows-like user interface?

Because, like I said, it depends greatly on how you present your work
and how much work you put into marketing it. This topic pops up over
and over again, but no big effort has come out of this.

>> I don't use Java or .NET, but the one person I know who uses Java
>> hates it for lousy performance. And as much as a holy grail as it
> Have a look at
> http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u32q/benchmark.php?test=all&lang=all&box=1.
> I know this is not a realistic benchmark, but Java is not as bad as people
> (espacially people that never used Java) claim.
> I guess, it is probably best for me to stay with KDE and MacOS X because I
> don't share this elitist attitude that Nextstep/Openstep is the best GUI and
> people just don't use it because they don't know it. I for one know
> Nextstep/Openstep, I even have an old Gecko with Nextstep but I still prefer
> something more modern looking. KDE seems more user oriented. From my
> experience they want to create something the user wants to use and not
> something they think the user has to use to increase productivity. In my
> opinion OSS products should be fun to work on / with. But I am fine with your
> attitude as well, as long as you don't force it on me.

Which I wasn't. I wasn't being elitist either (read above). I still
stand by my claim: once enough people are made aware of GNUstep some
will choose it, some won't, but it won't be automatically rejected on
grounds of being "out of fashion" or "hard to use" or "too different
from Windows" or any of the usual excuses used by some to dismiss it.
And let's be fair, no one in the GNUstep community is ever elitist
(zealous maybe). Have you ever heard complaints from software
developers about the Mac crowd? You'd think they're all primadonnas
who feel they're entitled to to the best software there is by virtue
of being a Mac user. I've never encountered that with GNUsteppers so
far. So if you want to stay with Mac, go ahead. If you want to go with
GNUstep you're welcome in the community.

Not to get back to the previous argument but...ahem: "I, for one".
Remember, NeXT never achieved a significant market share so quite
naturally, not many people know about it.

On your last point I wholeheartedly agree, open source software (as
well freedomware) should be fun to work with.
Besos, abrazos, confeti y aplausos.
Jamie Ramone
"El Vikingo"

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