Re: NeXT GNU Homage Project Work

[Liam Proven]

On 18 November 2015 at 00:53, Riccardo Mottola
<riccardo.mottola@libero.it> wrote:
>
> It is widely used. The other statements I dissent about.
> Debian has really questionable "ease of install" when it comes to firmware
> and drivers, for example.

Mint > Ubuntu > Debian. You choose how Free you want, and you get the
level of ease-of-use according to that.

> Systemd is a pain you get

Only if you care. Most people don't. My machine with 15.10 on started
booting /dramatically/ faster after the version upgrade that installed
systemd. I was impressed and like it. I don't give a damn about
scripts/logging format/etc., just that it works.

> and many other things I do need to "tailor" before
> I have a usable system

Yes, Debian is a bit like that. Which is why I use Ubuntu, which works
out-of-the-box and to which I can add proprietary codec support with a
single command.

> debian and it is not so easy to update either if you
> don't want to break things.

This is the direct opposite of my experience, but I appreciate that
others' experiences differ from mine. As I said, I've never once
managed to get an install of FreeBSD to /both/ see the internet /and/
have a working GUI except  via distros such as GhostBSD and PC-BSD.

> On OpenBSD I just install the system major dependencies are a breeze and
> work my way up to GNUstep without pain. But that is personal preference.

Yes indeed. I do not mean to dismiss *BSD -- they're fine OSes if you
have the skills to use them. If you don't, Linux is easier and Ubuntu
is the easiest Linux in my extensive experience over the last 19
years.

>> *That*  is what should be the #1 priority to support well with GNUstep.
>
> We do support Debian and Ubuntu very well.

I am beginning to think that you live in a different, parallel universe to me.

"Support Debian/Ubuntu well" means:

* add repo
* install  metapackage

And you're done.

N.B. Ubuntu does not include a compiler by default. Users having to
build from source does *not* mean "supports well". I have not had to
build components from source since the 1990s.


> I have GNUstep on Raspbian
> working quite fine.

Good for you.

> We are not directly responsible for the quality of packages supplied, so the
> two things need to be separated.

AFAICT the GNUstep project doesn't supply packages *at all*. There are
Philippe's ones and that's all.

However, the downstream distros do, so someone needs to find where
they come from and get them updated -- or removed, as currently they
give a very bad impression.

> We also do work well on SuSE and those packages appear to be far more
> complete.

Stopped using it in 2004; not looked since except for review purposes.
It's largely a corporate-only tool now, it seems to me.

> During the Dublin meeting, both Debian and SuSE packages were discussed and
> Ivan is working to get us better custom DEB packages. This doesn't mean
> directly that "official" packages will benefit, we would need a DD for a
> good sponsor for that.

Good news.

I talked to SUSE at LinuxCon Europe last month, and the company is
very proud of its online automated package-factory tool, which
supports the other leading distros as well as SUSE. I have
contemplated seeing if I can make that build GNUstep from source, but
I don't really know where to begin -- it's something I've not done
this century, as I said.


>> The answer to the problem "I can't install GNUstep on Ubuntu or
>> Debian" is_not_  "install FreeBSD instead". It's not "install
>> $ANY_OTHER_OS".
>
>
> I just mentioned that there are other OS and that they are of high quality,
> have better out-of-the-box GNUstep experience and that they are easy or even
> easier to maintain. That's all.

I strongly dispute the "easy or easier to maintain" part, but
otherwise, sure, yes, that is great stuff and a good thing.

But GNUstep needs to provide binaries for the industry-leading
distro(s). Actually, it needed them a decade ago, but better late than
never.


--
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