Re: Our self-presentation, not just on our website. (Was: Re: GS based app release: djay by Algoriddim in Beta)

[Riccardo Mottola]

Hi Lars,

as I wrote, you can't fix the opinions of the whole world.

Foreword: I notice that my latest commits don't get published on 
http://wwwmain.gnustep.org or http://home.gnustep.org- I will ask Ivan, 
maybe something is not working.

lars.sonchocky-helldorf@hamburg.de wrote:
> It translates to:
>
> What's wrong with them using a modern theme?
> I'm not a fan of changing things all the time, but we have more than 
> 16 colors and using a gradient here and there in the UI can 
> significantly enhance controls without overly colorful design.
>
> When I see the screenshots of the project, the whole thing again looks 
> like someone is building something that has to work at 640x480 with 16 
> colors, although I can imagine that the principles behind it would 
> still/again make sense today. Something in the direction of Windows 7 
> or Breeze optics would really not hurt.

This comment is quite "pathetic".. he expresses a taste.. (although the 
UI was never designed for 640x480, but for a megapixel display).
I counter this argument with a spot-on thought:
Windows 7 Aero is already quite "old" and obsoleted! While I decently 
like its look, as Windows XP Luna, they are all "old" designs with 
gradients, borders...  the same is true for older MacOS like Snow 
Leopard, gtk2, KDE 3.... Maybe he can be pleased with a theme like 
Nesedah, Rik... etc.

Today, things are different. Look at windows 10/11... it doesn't even 
have window borders, everything is flat and most UI elements have two 
colors only! Same goes for current gtk which has just some toy-interface 
without window decorations.
For me taste too much even, but our minimalism is current again. So a 
theme similar to Sleek or something more extreme is appropriate.

What do you take home? trends and fashion in themes... since you cannot 
choose the best, just allow theming, but don't force a trendy default at 
every new release like others do.

> I answered that GNUstep already has themes, but when searching for 
> https://gnustep.github.io/experience/Theming.html I found out that 
> this page is nowhere linked from the front page, so I knew it exists 
> but I had to google it. All in all our web presence (while looking 
That page is very old.. I did it like a decade ago, so I remember. I 
know it was linked... we ended up linking to the wiki which is (was) 
more current with a lot of unreleased stuff.. will check that and 
prepare an update. More work is needed.

> somewhat sleek) is in a kinda sorry state: It doesn’t get those 
> messages around:
These are a bit impressions, not really correct statements, read below.

> - We are not Window Maker and Window Maker alone is not GNUstep

This is stated twice on the website. Once preminently in the 
introduction page (available as first-item in the menu and one-click 
form the HP) as well as in a specific clarification page... which was 
old and a bit duplicate. I just updated it to the latest style.


> - We are a cross platform implementation (Linux, BSDs, Windows) of 
> Cocoa, formerly OpenStep

Stated explicitely on the same information page!


> - We are up to date (here Greg knows best which features of which 
> macOS version are supported)

This, agreed, can be improved. We have discussed big dynamic projects, 
but perhaps for the time being a good page with a static table with 
classes, versions and state could be useful to have in the developer 
section.
Personally I think we shouldn't tie out our readiness too much against 
"Mac version" which is a diverging target...but also on how we run on 
latest versions on BSDs, Linux, etc etc

> - We are themable (adding some screenshots of modern themes on the 
> frontpage would be great)
We have themed screenshots.. I put back the old carousel.. it is 
actually the first image currently.
Best would be to "release" some themes, so that they can be officially 
linked.

Second best, is a nice theme list with screenshots also to development 
stuff: best put in the Wiki, we started working on that.
We absolutely need the wiki back.


> additionally:
>
> - GNUstep can be used as a desktop environment (a link to a somewhat 
> maintained one would be good here, for instance 
> https://github.com/trunkmaster/nextspace ).

Again, it is there: directly linked on the homepage. On update, I also 
linked GSDE, but it doesn't show yet.
I don't like that too much for the kind of project it is, also it is 
on.hold. So I removed it in the other site... Etoilè is completely dead

> Even better it would be if we had our own reference implementation of 
> a desktop environment, but I see this is wishful thinking, as we lack 
> the manpower to do so (no offense to women by the way ;-)).

Perhaps we would never agree on that, but we could cobble one together 
in our hypothetical reference distribution.

> But as of now we come over as we would be a „software museum“ not as 
> something contemporary. Sorry, I had to say this, but when I bring 
> GNUstep on the table in discussions I regularly get laughed at: „Are 
> you serious? This stuff is from the last century!“

A lot of persons just repeat what they read and not verified, or what 
they experienced once but is not true anymore, etc....

Riccardo