Re: Brutal review…

[Daniel Boyd]

Downside for the private repo route is you have to pay for the hosting 
infrastructure. And then you’ll need packages for a bunch versions of Debian 
and Ubuntu that someone would need to curate. 

Honest question—would it be easier to do a flatpak?

Also, is there any GNU infrastructure we could leverage to host an apt repo?

Since Debian 13 is a long ways off, I do think we might want to consider the 
private repo or flatpak route, but obviously neither of those is a trivial 
project.

I’m happy to help with a project like that—flatpak or private repo—but I’ve 
never done anything like that, so would need some guidance/help. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 18, 2023, at 08:52, H. Nikolaus Schaller <hns@goldelico.com> wrote:
> 
> Well, I have no idea how Debian upstreaming works - I just know how a 
> private (or self-published) repository can work (and that it is easier to 
> handle).
> 
> -- hns
> 
>> Am 18.10.2023 um 15:35 schrieb Daniel Boyd <danieljboyd@icloud.com>:
>> 
>> I know this isn’t the first time we’ve discussed getting clang-based gnustep 
>> into Debian. Since Debian 12 just came out, I assume our next opportunity is 
>> Debian 13? What prevented us from getting in 12 and what do we need to do to 
>> get into 13?
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>>> On Oct 18, 2023, at 08:20, H. Nikolaus Schaller <hns@goldelico.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> Am 18.10.2023 um 14:43 schrieb Daniel Boyd <danieljboyd@icloud.com>:
>>>> 
>>>> The problem with a desktop environment metapackage is that gnustep is not 
>>>> a desktop environment. Window Maker *uses* gnustep, but it is not gnustep 
>>>> proper. In the same way that xfce uses gtk+.
>>> 
>>> Yes, that is why I changed my mind to propose
>>> 
>>> - gnustep:    is a GUI development toolkit like gtk or qt
>>>  it is a metapackage to pull in
>>>  gnustep-base
>>>  gnustep-hui
>>>  gnustep-gcc
>>>  gnustep-clang
>>>  etc.
>>> - gap:        a set of applications using the gnustep toolkit - one Debian 
>>> package for each one
>>> - gsde:        is a desktop environment using (i.e. making the package 
>>> dependent on) gnustep like xfce is using gtk+.
>>> 
>>> Potentially it is possible to split then "gnustep" package into a runtime 
>>> (meta) package that just loads compiled shared libraries and a 
>>> "gnustep-dev" package that loads all the header files. And Debian source 
>>> code packages... Then, "gsde" would only have to depend on "gnustep" and 
>>> not on "gnustep-dev".
>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> I think you need to strike a balance somehow. On one hand, we don’t want 
>>>> to make it hard to discover gnustep apps. But on the other hand, I think 
>>>> it’s important that we don’t add to the confusion about what gnustep 
>>>> actually is—a framework upon which apps are built. Not the apps themselves.
>>> 
>>> So IMHO there is no problem at all with this and no confusion, as long as 
>>> "gnustep" and "gsde" and "gap" are separated. In mind and in package names.
>>> 
>>> My proposal would be to just start to work instead of debating what the 
>>> "best" compromise is. It is not difficult or even challenging and then 
>>> improve the structure after seeing how it works in practise and where the 
>>> issues are. It is not a big deal to rename packages, modify package 
>>> dependencies, descriptions and contents, as long as the debian package 
>>> version numbers are correctly incremented.
>>> 
>>> I haven't followed all discussions but if there is someone who sets up a 
>>> private debian repository for all gnustep related packages and maintains 
>>> it, everyone could contribute. And it just needs an additional entry in 
>>> /etc/apt/sources.list or a file in /etc/apt/sources.list.d
>>> 
>>> -- hns
>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>> 
>>>>>> On Oct 18, 2023, at 00:32, H. Nikolaus Schaller <hns@goldelico.com> 
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Well, on second thought it is a matter of definition.
>>>>> 
>>>>> There could be:
>>>>> gsde    - as the GNUstep based desktop (equivalent to xfce4 for example)
>>>>> gnustep    - as the full and complete development system (equivalent to 
>>>>> Xcode)
>>>>> gap        - the GNUstep applications
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Am 18.10.2023 um 07:11 schrieb H. Nikolaus Schaller <hns@goldelico.com>:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Am 18.10.2023 um 00:15 schrieb Daniel Boyd <danieljboyd@icloud.com>:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Yeah you're right -- that was oversimplifying.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I think you need several metapackages
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> metapackages for running gnustep apps
>>>>>>> gnustep -- synonym for gnustep-clang (at least I think that should be 
>>>>>>> the default)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> No, if you apt install lxde or xfce4 or mate or ... it is simply a 
>>>>>> metapackage not for running apps but a full preconfigured desktop 
>>>>>> including some default setup and apps like Terminal, web browser. That 
>>>>>> is the best user experience.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> So it should be a package that installs gnustep desktop eonvironment. 
>>>>>> I.e. base, gui, gap apps, etc. which can be grouped in other 
>>>>>> metapackages (e.g. gnustep-core, gnustep-gap)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> And then there should be gnustep-dev for being able to develop packages. 
>>>>>> Which will be best developer experience.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> gnustep-gcc
>>>>>>> gnustep-clang
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> metapackages for developing gnustep apps
>>>>>>> gnustep-dev (installs gnustep-clang-dev)
>>>>>>> gnustep-gcc-dev
>>>>>>> gnustep-clang-dev
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> And then that way if you're developing an app that requires libobjc2, 
>>>>>>> you can just add gnustep-clang as a dependency. (I'm not sure gcc/clang 
>>>>>>> is the best approach. objc1/objc2 might be better...? Regardless, I 
>>>>>>> think you name it whatever would be most obvious to someone new to the 
>>>>>>> project.)
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Oct 17, 2023, at 4:39 PM, Riccardo Mottola 
>>>>>>>> <riccardo.mottola@libero.it> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Daniel Boyd wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Project goal should be for the instructions to get a working gnustep
>>>>>>>>> environment (in Debian) to be as simple as:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> sudo apt install gnustep
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> that's oversimplifying, but something along a couple of virtual 
>>>>>>>> packages
>>>>>>>> like "gnustep core" "gnustep development" "gnustep games" "gnustep net
>>>>>>>> apps" (if we had more than gnumail...)could do.
>>>>>>>> A "gnustep full" is a bit overkill, but for whom wants it would be also
>>>>>>>> easy to do. I don't know how xfce or gnome do things nowadays, because 
>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>> always go the "cherry-pick" route there too.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> They do it all the overkill way :)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> These would just pull in the proper selection of packages which should
>>>>>>>> be separately available. Not even that hard, even on debian. Debian has
>>>>>>>> most stuff already, except some long-standing missing things.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> With our private repo, even easier then. A thing to remember would be 
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> make them incompatible with the offical debian packages or something
>>>>>>>> similar, do be sure that they don't get mixed up.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> It is easy to mix public and private repos.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Just my 2cts
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -- hns
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>> 
>