Re: WebSite: navigation to bug reporting

[Riccardo Mottola]

Hi Lars,


lars.sonchocky-helldorf@hamburg.de wrote:
> Some initial remarks first: I appreciate the effort you’re making to 
> get us a better website. But I think before we lose ourselves in 
> details of the menu structure, we should think about which audience we 
> want to carter.

No, I don't want to stir up that question again. I made precise 
questions to get answer about them, it was intentional.
So, sorry, I will reply only to certain parts of your email, apologies 
in advance. I did intentionally restrict the topic.

> Is it developers? Is it users? Is it both? Is it something to be 
> discussed?

For me it is clear that we cater both... and I prefer not re-discussing 
this to death again.
The alternative would be to create two sites, but it would be worse in 
my opinion, for what I will explain below.

Also, for this reason, parallels to GTK and GNOME have a limit, because 
they have the two-site approach.

> I had a look and it looks improved compared to the current version at 
> https://gnustep.github.io/ But I would refrain from renaming the menus 
> „For Users“ and „For Developers“ to „Experience“ and just „Developers“.

Actually, it is the original wording which existed for years. I don't 
like "For xxx" and it is a recent change I did not import back.
While "Experience" and "Developers" is imperfect, "For Developers and 
"For Users" always irritated me, I don't like menus with "For" and also 
strikes a too tight line.

> „Experience“ is such a mushy word, it can mean everything and nothing 
> at the same time, but definitely nothing I would click on. Also, if we 
> want to carter to both users ands developers a the same time, I 
> wouldn’t „hide“ this fact in such small menus which are easily 
> overlooked but make it way more prominent.

It may be mushy, but it is definitely more correct than "For Users". The 
idea, is that there you find information to "Use" GNUstep and also 
information about the project. Something summed up with "Experience" 
(word which has been in use by a dozen of years in the site, much before 
my redesign).
A "normal" end-user might not be interested in the developer section, 
but a developer should be interested in the experience section.
A developer should be informed about the project scope, applications, 
design, etc.
Like two levels, the first is only for the end-user, but the second 
builds on the first level.

Perhaps, the wrong menu name is actually "Developers".. maybe more a 
word in line with "Development".



> While I understand what you want to express with „External“ I think it 
> is totally unclear what it means in this context. External what? Maybe 
> use „External Resources“. Also, I think it is completely irrelevant to 
> the user whether those stuff listed there is external to the website, 
> it is not „external“ to the project.

They are not really external resources... and names should be short too.
It contains references to various part of the project, but also to 
"external to gnustep.org" since other projects use gnustep, but are not 
"gnustep.org"

I said that "External" is not meaningful nowadays. Essentially it is 
really "More" or "Misc" but I hate to admit that.
I don't want to split up things further

> „encouraging discovery“ doesn’t work if you ask me, our website 
> shouldn’t be an adventure game. Instead this mostly leads to visitors 
> leaving the page.

You interpret it wrong. Most site I use daily go this route, maybe my 
wording did convey the wrong concept to you.
Instead of reading long texts to find something, you look for menus or 
navigation items.
Many sites are done this way, also professional stuff I use for work. 
You find in the menu things like payments, downloads and such.
It just feels natural and people are accustomed to explore, click around.
Like you don't read a manual when using an App, just... "discover it" 
because things have expected names, places, icons...

It can be taken to the extreme like in www.netbsd.org, where you access 
everything from the navigation menu at left.
Also the gnome.org site you cited is a comprompise between. E.g. you 
find the "Donate" only in the bar, not in the text, as the technologies 
used are just one-click in the menu, not in the text.


> I hope you consider my critique not as harsh or unfriendly. I am 
> trying to find the weaknesses in our current approach towards a good 
> solution for GNUstep as a whole.

Nothing harsh.. it happens that we disagree on certain things and 
perhaps just misunderstood on others. But there is alot of personal 
experience and taste involved.

> If you don’t like this, please let me know!

No problem with discussion, I read and evaluate. But you did not 
actually give answers to some of my questions. That's all :)

Peace,

Riccardo