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Re: Bidirectional links with eev

From: Quiliro Ordóñez
Subject: Re: Bidirectional links with eev
Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2022 00:45:33 +0000

El 2022-09-25 18:05, Eduardo Ochs escribió:
> On Sun, 25 Sept 2022 at 19:15, Quiliro Ordóñez <> wrote:
>> (...)
> Hi Quiliro!
> First:
>> I cannot update to 20220924.  Are you sure it is in ELPA yet?
> Ouch! It is not! I'll try to debug that...

I have tried to update since your announcement.  Iam still unable to do

>> For both talks, I suggest to open with a 2 sentence description of what
>> eev is. And then an explanation of the results which are expected from
>> using the tool you are about to present.  These introductions should be
>> understood by anyone, regardless of the experience they have with Emacs
>> or eev.
> The problem is that even after all these years I still don't have a
> good short description of what eev is _that makes sense to most
> people_, and I am still trying to understand why some ideas that are
> totally obvious to me are so hard for other people...

Explaining to someone who does not want to understand is useless.  First
there must be the motivation to understand to put the effort to do it.

> Most people don't understand why I prefer to keep "executable notes of
> everything that I do" in a format that I find easy to read, to edit,
> and to reuse, even when that takes much longer than just installing a
> package and learning a few new keybindings... maybe their notion of
> "fun" is opposite to mine. =S

A good motivation would be to show people how to solve the problems they
have.  Of course that your examples do that.  But until a person knows
how it works, they will not be able to understand how it applies to
their personal problem.  So the solution is to find their problems,
choose one and show them how to solve it.  If it is easy to implement
for that person, it will connect with their motivation.  That will help
them put the effort into learning eev (or any other thing).  eev is just
a tool.  You learn to use a tool when you see the end result in your

Learning is hard.  Only some people like to learn for the sake of it.  
Most people try to avoid doing hard things.  They would rather be
connected to virtual reality and have it solve everything for them.

>> I do think that key bindings for eev should all share the same prefix
>> keybinding.  It would make it easier to identify it.  Maybe another idea
>> would be to use C-c as is used in org-mode.  I am not sure about the way
>> to solve it, but I have difficulty remembering how to do things in eev.
>> Maybe you have better ideas.
> Here's how I've handled that since the 90s - in a slightly modernized
> version. Suppose that your cheat sheet about things that your are
> currently learning is in a file called ~/LEARNING. Then run this,
>   (defun le () (interactive) (find-fline "~/LEARNING"))
>   (defun ll () (interactive) (find-2a nil '(le)))
>   (defun eejump-26 () (le))
>   (defun eejump-27 () (ll))
> and ta-da: now `M-x le' and `M-2 M-6 M-j' open ~/LEARNING in the
> current window, and `M-x ll' and `M-2 M-7 M-j' open ~/LEARNING in the
> window at the right.
> Does that make sense? Does it look convenient? Or clumsy?

Very much.  Of course that I had to read it from the end to the
beginning to understand it better.  It would be more clear to me this

Suppose that you have a cheat sheet about things that your are currently
learning in a file called ~/LEARNING. You could have:
`M-x le' and `M-2 M-6 M-j' open ~/LEARNING in the current window, and
`M-x ll' and `M-2 M-7 M-j' open ~/LEARNING in the window at the right.
You could do it by just runnig this: 
   (defun le () (interactive) (find-fline "~/LEARNING"))
   (defun ll () (interactive) (find-2a nil '(le)))
   (defun eejump-26 () (le))
   (defun eejump-27 () (ll))

Described in that order, I found motivation to learn it before the
explaination of how to do it.

On the other hand.  Short descriptions make better tools than deep ones.
 In case someone wants to dive in deeper, they could investigate.  The
important thing is the motivation.

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