Re: not too happy with Emacs 21 vertical-line dragging when scrollbars present

[Kim F. Storm]

"Drew Adams" <address@hidden> writes:

> I don't want to stir this pot much more, but, for clarification:
>
>  - I thought that Kim's original text, quoted by Richard, was talking about
> letting you drag the scroll-bar itself, not dragging below it on the
> mode-line. Is that right?

Yes.

>
>  - I thought that Richard's reply was taking about this thin vertical strip
> that Kim proposed perhaps adding between windows. Is that right?

Richard said that we cannot drag the scroll-bar itself (the scrollbar widget
takes control over the mouse, so that's not possible).

Then he commented on the square area that was between modelines in
20.x that was reduced to a thin line in 21.1.  He said it was easier
to grab the old square than the current thin line.

>
>  - If so, then I don't understand Kim's reply, saying that we already have
> such a feature - that it's easy to use "that thin line" to drag. Is the thin
> line in question the current thin line between _mode-lines_, or the tiny
> area between _windows_ that Kim proposed adding?

My response was that it is just as easy to grab the thin line (between
modelines) in 21.x as it was to grab the square in 20.x

>
> To me, needing to mouse-over the scroll-bar to get the drag handle would be
> OK. The scroll-bar is big, obvious, and conceptually that's just what you
> want to do: drag the scroll-bar. 

As I said, mouse-over for a scroll-bar is out of emacs' control.  If we are
to do something here, we would add a thin line on the side of the scrollbar
and the user would have to be precise to grab that line (like grabbing the
edge of a frame)...

>                                  Needing to mouse-over to find the existing
> tiny thin line between _mode-lines_, however, is not good. Intuitively, you
> don't go mousing around between two mode-lines to find where to drag the
> scroll-bar.

Didn't you have to mouse around in 20.x to discover what the square area did?
I don't see the difference...

>
> So, just what thin, vertical rectangle are we talking about here: a
> potential one to be added between windows or the existing one between
> mode-lines?

The one between mode lines.

>
> --
>
> To speak to a different part of this subject, Richard said this:
>
>   It would be hard to do it at the right using mode-line-format.
>   It would be easy to add a new feature that would override part
>   of the mode line at the right when appropriate.
>
> If I understand this correctly, he is saying that, in effect, that we could
> get back the small, visible drag-handle square beneath the scroll-bar that
> we had in Emacs 20. That would be good. If, alternatively, a way could be
> found to let users drag the scroll-bar itself, that would be even better.
>
>  - Drew
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kim F. Storm [mailto:address@hidden
>
> Richard Stallman <address@hidden> writes:
>
>>     It would be much better if we could find a way to just drag the
>>     scroll-bar.
>>
>> Dragging in the scroll bar has another meaning.
>>
>>     One way would be to always make a tiny area between windows that you
>>     could drag.  But unless we do it by reducing the qscroll bar width,
>>     that would take away space that is now used for text display.
>>
>> We DID have a tiny area, at the bottom of the scroll bar.  Drew is
>> complaining that we got rid of it.  It is much easier to use a square
>> than a very thin rectangle.  It is hard to put the mouse on the
>> latter.
>
> That's not correct.  It is easy to put the cursor on that tiny line!
>
> The code uses a relaxed check so that if the mouse is within ONE
> COLUMN on either side of the line, the cursor changes to the <-> drag
> cursor.  So there is already a virtual block area there which is TWO
> COLUMS wide there.
>
>
>>
>>     It is much harder (impossible) to make a drag-able area to the right
>>     of the modeline, as there is no fixed right edge of the modeline at
> the
>>     lisp level [the modeline is simply truncated by redisplay].
>>
>> It would be hard to do it at the right using mode-line-format.
>> It would be easy to add a new feature that would override part
>> of the mode line at the right when appropriate.
>
> Personally, I see no reason to make that explicitly stand out more
> than it already does...
>
>

-- 
Kim F. Storm <address@hidden> http://www.cua.dk