Re: GTK file selector

[Juri Linkov]

>  > The filename entry field (with available TAB completion like in Emacs) was
>  > a very useful feature.  Neither C-l nor a small text box that appears
>  > after starting typing is an acceptable replacement.
>
> What the Gnome people have implemented is an acceptable replacement; it
> gives the same functionality as the old but without its confusing features.

These "confusing" features were very useful.

> If you don’t accept that, then I’ve no confidence that you’ve ever used the
> new file selection dialog.

Of course, I've used the new file selection dialog in GTK applications
other than Emacs configured to use GTK.  When I encountered the new
file selection dialog for the first time, I wasted my time searching on
the Web how to return a good old filename entry field.  Fortunately,
many mailing lists were full of cursing at the new file dialog, so it
was easy to find information about C-l which is not intuitive.

The new file selection dialog is a failure of Gnome developers to design
an intuitive and convenient UI for beginners as well as for power users.

>  > > And yes, making GNU Emacs behave more like a Win32 app, like Notepad,
>  > > _will_ make naïve users happy. Look at the success of CUA-mode.
>  > 
>  > CUA-mode doesn't disable useful Emacs features.
>
> What on Earth gave you the idea that I suggested disabling useful features?

Removing the filename entry field was disabling a useful feature.

>  > > Hang round with Win32 users looking for an advanced editor, and they’ll
>  > > go for Notepad++ long before GNU Emacs, because all their habits from
>  > > Notepad work in Notepad++, and not in emacs.
>  > 
>  > Notepad++ is not easier to use for naive users than Emacs.
>
> It’s much easier to use for a naïve Win32 user than is any emacs, and in
> 2005 the number of users who come to Emacs before encountering Win32 and
> gaining some experience is infinitesimally small compared to the number with
> previous Win32 experience. 

Could you elaborate a bit what makes it easier for naïve Windows users
to use than emacsen?  A simple user interface?  A familiar user interface?
Easy configuration?  Something else?

>  > > Emacs is more featureful, but not enough to overcome the pain of finding
>  > > out what CUA-mode is
>  > 
>  > The top-level menu item in the Options menu that enables CUA-mode
>  > and its tooltip are self-descriptive enough.
>
> I disagree. 

The current menu item for enabling CUA-mode is "C-x/C-c/C-v Cut and Paste (CUA)"
and the tooltip is "Use C-z/C-x/C-c/C-v keys for undo/cut/copy/paste".
This gives a good hint about what is CUA-mode for.

>  > > and doing all the other donkey-work to have the editor behave like what
>  > > they’re used to.
>  > 
>  > Experts can do this easily anyway.
>
> And an editor that makes it unnecessary is still more attractive than one
> where it must be done. 

An editor that makes customization unnecessary?  I never heard about
such an editor.  As far as I recall even Notepad has one customizable
option - to toggle line wrapping :-)

>  > > and minimal consideration for GUI users in this age of 17"
>  > > screens. Among other reasons.
>  > >
>  > > Eclipse, VIM or Notepad++ seem to be what most of the power users I
>  > > know who chose an advanced editor recently are using.
>  > 
>  > I don't think VIM belongs to the category of Notepad-like editors.
>
> And? I do know some Unix power-users. 

You still haven't mentioned advantages of these editors for power users
over emacsen.

-- 
Juri Linkov
http://www.jurta.org/emacs/