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Re: [emacs-bidi] Mixed L2R and R2L paragraphs and horizontal scroll

From: Ehud Karni
Subject: Re: [emacs-bidi] Mixed L2R and R2L paragraphs and horizontal scroll
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 00:05:28 +0200

On Mon, 01 Feb 2010 22:18:31 Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> What is a ``non-technical text'', and how is it different from the
> other kind?  Also, to what kind belong your examples in this message?

Non technical text is composed of long sentences of words, mostly in one
language (e.g Man page). Technical text may have less words and more
tokens and non alphabetic symbols (e.g. script, ls output).

> > Consider Example1: a list of items, each line has: name, quantity,
> > catalog-id and description. Most of the names are in Latin but some
> > are in Hebrew.
> Where is Example1?  I don't see it in the message you posted?  Did you
> talk in general about itemized lists with mixed L2R and R2L text?

I talked in general. The various lines begin with Hebrew or Latin.

> > In this case there must be an external dictation of paragraph direction.
> There is already a variable to force certain paragraph direction on
> all the paragraphs in a buffer.  Finer (per-paragraph) control can be
> exercised by starting a paragraph with a suitable mark (RLM or LRM)
> character.

Yes, I just wanted to emphasize that automatic per-paragraph (default?)
direction may be very wrong some times.

> But what does this have to do with the issue at hand?

Nothing to do with scrolling.

> > scrolled (23) in a smaller window:
> >        +-------------------------------+
> >        |$ong-description               |
> >        |$NOITPIRCSED-GNO               |
> >        +--------------------------------
> Why like above and not like below:
>        +-------------------------------+
>        |$ong-description               |
>        |$RCSED-GNOL-YREV               |
>        +--------------------------------

Because if you choose your way of scrolling, you always see the same
part (of different length) - the beginning of the Hebrew text.
Suppose the the Hebrew text is very long, twice the window size, then
you'll see only the first width-of-screen Hebrew characters, no matter
how much scrolling you do. I taught that was one of the reasons for
your conclusion of (KJI and not CBA):
ez>     +---------+---------+-------------------+
ez>     |$ijk     |abcdefgh$|abcdefghijk        |
ez>     |     KJI$|$HGFEDCBA|        KJIHGFEDCBA|
ez>     +---------+---------+-------------------+

> > Example 3: text, mostly in Hebrew but some lines have no Hebrew,
> > like arithmetic formulas (Latin + digits + neutrals only) or
> > ls output (real recent email I got).
> >
> > Here we could use either external dictation of RTL direction or
> > automatic paragraph direction. In RTL direction the formula may be
> > displayed wrongly (if neutral characters are on the sides). When
> > automatic paragraph direction is used, short lines may be too far
> > apart.
> A real example will help here.

Here is a real example (upper case = Hebrew)

This will appear as (think of 160 character wide text screen):
                                                   NI SELIF EHT TUP
                                               MEHT EKAT LLIW I DNA

> > In this case, something like `right-margin-goal-column' as suggested
> > by RMS is a good solution.
> The problem with such a ``rigid scrolling'' is that it must affect L2R
> lines as well, for consistency.  In the current display engine, we
> don't allow scrolling to the right (e.g., with C-x >) once column zero
> is visible.  With rigid scrolling, we will need to allow it.

I can always split the Emacs window horizontally and change it size
until I have the best fit, It just takes more work.


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