RE: delete-selection-mode

[Berndl, Klaus]

>David Katrup writes:

>>Jason Rumney <address@hidden> writes:

>>> Alan Mackenzie <address@hidden> writes:
>>> My view is that we should never make something default in Emacs if
>>> it's likely to provoke the angry reaction "How do I disable this
>>> *!£$ing thing?".  delete-select-mode falls into this latter category.
>>> So does transient-mark-mode.
>>
>> So do fringes, toolbars, menus, scrollbars, the splash screen, syntax
>> highlighting and almost every other change we've made to Emacs over
>> the years.

>None of them destroy your text given the same keystrokes.

I'm pretty sure you will not find the jack of all trades device which will 
satisfy the
needs of Emacs newcommers as well as the needs of the old-timers... But this 
isn't
necessary. Why to fight against?

The only question is: Do we prefer a default which supports best the Emacs 
gurus using it
for 1000 years or a default which drops down the entry barriers for people who 
come from
the other planets? There is no need for trying to convince the "other side" 
that "this-is-the
one-and-only-and-best-of-all-way for dealing with selections. There is NO 
one-and-only-way.

Yes, you are right when you say, delete-selection-mode off has some advantages, 
no doubt.

But the Emacs team must take a decision: Is it a main goal for Emacs to 
"acquire" many
newcomers or is this not a main goal?! If not, then there is no need to make
something like delete-selection-mode on by default, then you can save the time 
for this
discussion. But if this is a main goal: Then you will have to break down the 
"wall around
Emacs". Of course there is no wall in fact but i hope you understand what i try 
to say.

1000 years ago emacs could cook it own soup no problem...but today quite all 
people use
web browsers, text-processors (regardless if open source or Microsoft) etc. And 
all these
programs - regardless if running on Linux, Unix, Mac OS or Windows - perform 
the same way:
If there is a selection and you hit DEL then the selection is deleted and if 
you hit any
"self-inserting" key then this key replaces the selection. At least i do not 
know any
program with substantial propagation which interferes with this approach.

People are used to this behavior. No, not only used to it but this behavior is 
became
ingrained. It is a de-facto standard and thereforew it is not the question if 
this is 
the best behavior or not. We have simply to accept that this is THE behavior.

Most people coming from the not-Emacs-world will not give Emacs a try if these 
fundamental
behaviors differ from their expectations. Cars having the gearstick not in 
front of the
central console between the front-seats but having instead a steering idler arm 
will not 
have great success in the market (BMW has tried this in their recent 7-series 
but they came
back to the de-facto standard between the seats because people want to see 
fundamental
standards fullfilled).

To come back to my introducion question about the main goals of Emacs 
development: If you
want new peoples then you should break down the entry barrier into this great 
tool Emacs.
In consequence this means to set appropriate defaults. Experienced users can 
switch between
one second to their loved emacs-behavior. Do not try to evangelize new peoples. 
First let
them in, then give them some hints and pointers what alternatives Emacs offers 
and why they
could be even better than the known standards... If people have become more 
familiar with
Emacs maybe they are open for the emacs-world... ;-). BUT FIRST LET THEM IN!

Klaus