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Re: smtp crap

From: Tim Cross
Subject: Re: smtp crap
Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 09:41:31 +1100

On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 9:00 AM, Drew Adams <address@hidden> wrote:
>> and please, DO NOT jump through all sorts of hoops with -Q to enable
>> 'special' configuration settings to exist - the whole idea of -Q is
>> that it is a base, well known and repeatable configuration. Once you
>> start making exceptions that whole premise is lost.
>> Using -Q should allow me to have exactly the same configuration as
>> someone else who also runs -Q - it should not be 'the same
>> configuration except for ....'
> 1+
>> If this means that users cannot submit bugs using emacs as their
>> MUA when running -Q it does not mean we need to hack at custom or make
>> exceptions - it means that email is not the right solution for
>> submitting bug messages when running under -Q.
> I acknowledge your "IF", Tim, but I disagree that we should accept a situation
> where users cannot send bug reports using email.  Of course, to do so they 
> need
> _some_ way of sending email, but it does not follow that they need to use 
> Emacs
> as that way.  They should be able to compose the bug report in Emacs and send 
> it
> any way they want and can.

OK, I'll try to clarify. Emacs bug reporting should not prevent people
from using another MUA to submit a bug report and it may even
facilitate doing so if someone wants to implement such support.
However, I think it is quite reasonable if, while running under -Q,
you cannot use emacs as the MUA to submit the bug report. This has
been the situation when running under -Q for anyone who does not use a
local MTA for as long as I can remember. If the arguments that local
MTAs are seldom configured and most people now require smtpmail etc,
are correct, then it is reasonable to assume this has been the case
for a majority of users for some time and not something new.

Keep things simple and don't try to be too clever. All that is really
needed is for emacs to dump the relevant bug report data into a text
file and inform the user where tthis text file is and where it should
be sent to report a bug. This reflects a process which many of us who
do not use a local MTA or do not use emacs as our MUA have used for

One point I totally agree with is the one you have been making about
not forcing people down the mail configuration path. By  all means,
assist people as much as possible once they choose that path, but
don't hurd them down it. This is why I raise the question concerning
numbers of people who actually use emacs as their MUA. It feels very
much like decisions being made based on personal experience and an
implicit assumption that an individuals personal experience is
representative of the majority of users - a common error we really
should be more aware of by now IMO.

If I find time, just for interest, I'm, going to try and do some
analysis of emacs-devel mail headers and see if I can get some stats
concerning MUAs being used. My ad hoc random non-scientific sampling
tends to indicate a lower number than perhaps many expect/assume.


Tim Cross

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