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From: Dmitry Gutov
Subject: Re: IDE
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 11:59:34 +0300
User-agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:41.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/41.0

On 10/10/2015 11:30 AM, Eli Zaretskii wrote:

I was talking about working on IDE, not on completion.  And for the
most popular languages in the industry, not just for some a few niche

You quoted the message that said "accurate code completion and powerful refactoring support". I can agree that the latter is barely touched (*), but it looked like you ignored the former.

Let's not reiterate past discussions: you forget CEDET.

I was enumerating external programs. But sure, CEDET is a yet another option for completion. Though not too "accurate" one, if we're talking anything but C.

And if anyone _really_ cares about supporting C/C++, they should be
working with and on GCC's libcc1, which is available for quite some
time already.

I wasn't aware of it. Is its API stable? Is it a good-enough replacement for libclang for the purposes of completion?

If you like, I can pass along the request to use it as an alternative to the Irony and Rtags issue trackers. But some more details wouldn't hurt, it's hard for me to advocate libcc1 myself.

Instead, all we have is heated discussions and hurt feelings.  That
will never get us anywhere.

My feelings aren't hurt, I just meant to add more information to the discussion.

I expect to see a coherent, orchestrated effort towards having an IDE
mode in Emacs.  I don't see it, certainly not in discussions on this
list.  I also don't see any commits that would provide evidence of
such an effort.

We definitely could have more in this department, yes. But what would you even call an "IDE mode"? A fixed multi-window setup a la ECB?

I prefer to approach this problem from the bottom - like adding new commands that perform certain advanced functions.

If such activities happen somewhere else, I would suggest their
participants to come here and work with and within the core.

That's... unlikely. At least, for most of them. My guess is that the mailing list interface is off-putting, but maybe we just need a better "community outreach" program, or something like that.

That would be something for the new maintainer(s) to consider.

starters, I don't imagine they would succeed without some significant
changes and additions in the core infrastructure.  The place to
discuss that is here.

For refactoring, yes. But just "accurate code completion", without extras like expanding the arguments or displaying the method source, can be (and is, in certain packages) implemented though the completion-at-point-function interface, present in Emacs since 24.1.

And you can have the extras using Company, which should be bundled with Emacs in the upcoming version. Or if the ELPA bundling isn't ready by then, in the version after that.

Then what exactly is the nature of your objections to my observations?
It seems we agree on the bottom line: no one works on this.  The
reasons are immaterial.

If anything, my view of the situation is a lot brighter than yours.

I also should have more time at the end of this month to put into improving xref, which is a step, as you know, in adding a common framework for some of the IDE-ish features.

(*) There are some third-party packages providing refactoring commands (for dynamic languages, mostly), but they would definitely benefit from a nice common UI.

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