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Re: use-package.el -> Emacs core

From: John Wiegley
Subject: Re: use-package.el -> Emacs core
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 11:35:58 -0800
User-agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.5 (darwin)

>>>>> Drew Adams <address@hidden> writes:

> Sure, but it's not an argument that just _because_ some end users are
> unaware of something that is used by other end users (especially if there is
> no alternative to using that something) it _follows_ that that thing is not
> "end-user". That's a phony argument.
> `define-key' is "end-user" because end users sometimes want/need to use
> keymaps other than `global-map', and it is their only way to do that. It
> might not be "end-user" enough for you, but that is something different.
> It is only the argument that I find fault with, not the attempt to come up
> with something better or more end-userish.

Ah, OK, I concede your point. I have no grounds for saying define-key *isn't*
user facing, just that I'd like a clearer divide between what developers would
use for this functionality, and something that caters more to users.

> FWIW, I also object to some kind of definite line, dividing non-Lisp Emacs
> users from "internal/programmatic mechanisms" and Lisp. There is naturally a
> spectrum of Emacs usage that involves different degrees of using Lisp. And
> that's a good thing. All kinds of Emacs user are welcome.


> It is a mistake to draw a hard line between Emacs "end use" and Lisp. Lisp
> vastly increases one's use of Emacs. Without some use of Lisp, you are not
> really taking advantage of Emacs. You might even say that you are not
> _really_ using it.
> We should, yes, cater to helping novice users who do not know Lisp. But we
> should also encourage the use of Lisp with Emacs, not discourage it. You
> don't need Lisp to start using Emacs. But if you really want to use Emacs
> then you will want to learn some Lisp. That should not be because you _have
> to_ learn it, but because you can do so much more with Emacs if you do.

So we probably agree that Emacs is a spectrum from "application" to
"programming heaven", and that while we'd like to be a good tool at every
point along that spectrum, we shouldn't discourage a gradual migration
towards the bliss most of us have found.

>> I'm the one acting on behalf of those users.
>   ^^^^^^^^^^^
> You are not the only one. Lots of us here keep those users in mind and try
> to act on their behalf. I'm glad you do too. Welcome aboard. ;-)

I'm very glad to hear that. :)


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