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Re: visual-region-mode?

From: hw
Subject: Re: visual-region-mode?
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2018 22:36:30 +0200
User-agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux)

address@hidden (Charles A. Roelli) writes:

>> From: hw <address@hidden>
>> Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2018 21:21:30 +0200
>> > and the commands using the region
>> > are well-marked (e.g. "kill-region", "fill-region", "eval-region",
>> > ...).
>> How does this make hidden regions efficient?
> You have a clear set of actions that can work on the region, anytime,
> no matter whether the region is "hidden", or active and visible, or
> rectangular.

Having clarified which operations can be used with a region doesn't mean
that working with a region can be efficiently done.

In practise, there is no clear set of operations for regions.  Various
modes and their options, combined with inconsistencies and weirdness,
make it anything but clear what does what under which circumstances.

>> I'm simply not using the mark, and it shouldn't be there.  The hidden
>> regions they create are a source for errors.  Make it so they don't
>> create regions, and the mark might become usable, provided it can be
>> made visible.
> The "hidden regions" can only be a source of error if you type, say,
> C-w or M-w at random during editing.

What about upcase-region, downcase-region and others that don't come to
mind atm?  They already clash with transient-mark-mode and are as unsafe
as C-w and M-w.  Changing mark-even-if-inactive to nil is required to
prevent that --- why isn't that the default?

> I don't understand why you would do that,

Yes, I wouldn't do that intentionally.  That these things happen
unintentionally is, as I said before, rather unlikely.

The hidden regions mean that I always have to consider that they are
always there so that I do not make a mistake in the first place.  That
makes me feel uneasy.

It's like having to walk around with a loaded gun all the time: I
wouldn't intentionally shoot my feet, and I wouldn't be the first one to
accidentally shoot myself if I did.  It's just easier to put the gun
away and to only get it when I want to use it than it is to exercise
perfect gun handling all the time.

Do you carry a toolbox around all the time because you are a mechanic,
or do you leave it at home when you go to a party where you won't need
it?  Emacs drags it around to every party because it doesn't know how to
let go.  If you ask Emacs about it, it'll say it's because it's
fundamental.  It can be difficult to argue with fundamental.

> especially in your case if you haven't selected a region beforehand.

You don't need to make a selection for a region you could make a mistake
with to always exist once there is a mark somewhere in the buffer.  That
region always exists all by itself, fundamentally waiting for you to
eventually make your mistake.

> You could just as well have hit C-/ or C-k, which will also change
> your buffer.

Yes, there are mistakes users can make the software can not reasonably
protect them against.  That doesn't mean the software shouldn't protect
the users when protecting them is reasonably possible.  It also doesn't
mean the software should make the mistake worse.

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