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Re: etc/HELLO markup etc.

From: Eli Zaretskii
Subject: Re: etc/HELLO markup etc.
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2018 09:10:53 +0200


Kenichi, could you please comment on this issue?  TIA.

> Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2018 10:12:37 +0200
> From: Eli Zaretskii <address@hidden>
> Cc: address@hidden, address@hidden, address@hidden
> > Cc: address@hidden, address@hidden,
> >  Emacs Development <address@hidden>
> > From: Paul Eggert <address@hidden>
> > Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 13:07:09 -0800
> > 
> > [removing address@hidden and adding address@hidden to cc list]
> I've changed the Subject, as the original one was too similar to the
> bug report.
> > Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> > > Which markup is not necessary for display, in your opinion?
> > 
> > At most all that's useful is markup that distinguishes Chinese and Japanese 
> > variants of Han characters; this might also include hanja (Korean) and Chữ 
> > Nôm 
> > (Vietnamese) variants if we ever added such characters to etc/HELLO. Such 
> > markup 
> > might be useful because a significant set of east Asian users dislike 
> > Unicode's 
> > Han unification and prefer specific variants of Han characters. I'm not 
> > aware of 
> > any other set of users who dislike unification in that way.
> I'm not yet sure this is only about Han unification.  Using charsets
> for specifying fonts is a general feature in Emacs, which can be used
> to control which fonts are selected independently of what the OS
> facilities such as fontconfig do.
> I hope Handa-san will be able to comment on this stuff.
> If Han unification is the only important user of the charset property,
> then yes, we could remove the rest of the charset info from HELLO.
> But please realize that the current HELLO just keeps the information
> that was there before recoding it in UTF-8, nothing was added.  It is
> just kept in a different form, which makes the charset info
> human-readable, where previously it was encoded in the ISO 2022
> sequences.
> > > That markup is precisely what keeps the charset properties on the
> > > corresponding greetings.  Removing it would be losing information that
> > > HELLO is trying to preserve.
> > 
> > Although the etc/HELLO markup might be of interest to those who care about 
> > annotating languages in the text, it's irrelevant to the ordinary purpose 
> > of 
> > that file, which is to show textual translations of "Hello"
> That's not the original purpose of that file.  The purpose is to show
> scripts, not languages, and to show how we display different scripts
> in the same buffer.
> > It's still not a good user interface, though, as it is difficult to see the 
> > markup's effect when visiting etc/HELLO in the usual way
> If the usual way is via find-file and its ilk, then you should see the
> same results as with "C-h h", so I'm not sure I understand what you
> mean here.
> > etc/HELLO is littered with so much useless markup
> I disagree that it's useless.  Most of it is useful.
> > the effect of markup errors is so subtle, and it's so much of a pain
> > to edit the markup in its ordinary form of display
> If you mean manually editing the markup, then you aren't supposed to
> do that.
> In what way most of what you say is not applicable to etc/enriched.txt
> in general?  If you just dislike what Enriched mode produces on disk,
> then let's stop this argument, as you seem to be arguing against files
> with markup in general, and that's a non-starter for me.
> > the file is not a good showroom for how to maintain multilingual
> > text.
> What other facilities are you aware of or can suggest for showing
> multilingual text with such level of detail and precision?
> > It's not a good sign that there seem to be errors in the
> > possibly-useful (i.e., CJ) markup that nobody has noticed since the
> > markup was introduced in May, and that I noticed these errors now
> > only because I was visiting the file literally.
> Which errors?  I don't think we discovered any errors.  We may have
> discovered some markup on whitespace where we perhaps could do without
> it (I'm not yet sure of that), but that's all, and is not necessarily
> an error.

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