Re: [External] : Re: indent-tabs-mode default [was: Representation of the Emacs userbase on emacs-devel]

[Po Lu]

Tim Cross <theophilusx@gmail.com> writes:

> Flawed argument.  Those who have set it don't have to do
> anything. They could remove it to slightly reduce their config size,
> but they could just as easily do nothing with no impact.

The point is, if you had your way, those who have not set it will have
to set it, which means the entire userbase will have to have set it at
some point.  How is that advantageous over leaving the status quo
intact?

How about this: create a new option `indent-tabs-mode-use-new-default',
which changes the default value of indent-tabs-mode, and can be enabled
by those who wish to have the new default value?

> The real problem is that people simply don't read the manual before
> using the editor.  If you did, that makes you quite unusual. What most
> people will do is use the editor and then turn to the manual when they
> have problems.

Perhaps you did not, but what most people do when confronted by a new
tool used for a certain task is to look up the relevant documentation on
the tool, and to give it a thorough reading, before actually using the
tool.

> All the above paragraphs tell me is that changing the setting is
> trivial.

Changing most settings in Emacs is trivial, but that is really outside
the scope of this discussion.

> This also means that whatever the default is really doesn't matter as
> the level of annoyance associated with having to change it is minimal
> regardless of what the default is.  Again, staying with the current
> default based on a argument of annoyance is irrelevant.  Other
> criteria are needed in order to make the decision anything more than
> arbitrary.

The question here is not primarily one of annoyance, but benefit.  And
strong wording will not change the fact that annoying existing users is
not beneficiary to a piece of software, as a fantastic example of how
not to develop software.

> There is also the problem of familiarity with all of the above. If you
> are use to Emacs and know all of this, yes it is easy and fairly
> trivial.  If your not, it can be hard.  The defaults are primarily for
> this category, not for experienced users IMO.

I wouldn't agree with categorizing the defaults this way.  IMO, the
defaults are intended for the people who value their time and energy,
and do actual work with their tools, which is a task that cannot
tolerate interruptions from changes made at a whim.  Especially a change
to an option as fundamental as indent-tabs-mode.

They also make for a welcome change from some of the absurdities at
present.  For example, there is a third-party package archive named
"MELPA", which ships packages up-to-date by the hour.  After struggling
with the sheer amount of effort required to keep Emacs usable with
packages from that archive, and failing, removing it from the package
archive list has turned out to be quite refreshing.

> As you point out, once you know about the customization interface,
> appropos etc, making the change is trivial.  For new users, not so
> much.

Apropos and Easy Customization are concepts very wide-spread in the real
world and other software, and are hardly specific to Emacs.  If someone
is confronted with a problem, and even if he has not actually read the
manual (which I doubt is usually the case), he will select "Help" from
the menu bar, and see options presented to him in a familiar manner.  As
a matter of fact, "apropos" as a word first appeared in 1668.

> I think it is also difficult to argue not to change a default and at
> the same time argue that it is easy for the user to change it if they
> don't like the default.

It is not difficult to argue for that position, because that position
means it is ensured that only people who have an actual need to change
the option have to change it.