Re: Propose to add setup-wizard.el to ELPA

[Yuan Fu]

> On Jan 2, 2022, at 1:41 AM, Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> Yuan Fu <casouri@gmail.com> writes:
> 
>> My point is that all configurations would be in one commented block of
>> code, instead of separated into different places.
> 
> So you can place `global-set-key' and `setq' in a single form, and also
> have it come out meaningfully?
> 
> Otherwise, I don't understand what you mean by "block".

As in

;; xxx
(Setq xxx xxx)
;; xxx
(Global-set-key xxx xxx)
...

> 
>> Maybe that’s true for some users. I had my fair share of struggle and
>> confusion with custom when I started using Emacs. IME a few lines of
>> setq, global-set-key and xxx-mode are simpler and more predicable than
>> custom.
> 
> I think the problem with people finding custom confusing is that they
> tend to blindly paste code from other people's configurations, and that
> code tends to not work well with custom.  There is no reason to worsen
> that problem by providing a setup wizard which doesn't work with custom.
> 
>> Neither of us has surveyed enough number of new Emacs users, so I
>> don’t think we can make definitive claims.  For example, I don’t think
>> it is unacceptable to expect a user to understand what does setq,
>> global-set-key or xxx-mode means.
> 
> You don't need to survey anyone to come to such a conclusion.  Just ask
> yourself this: do users of CLion have to know Java?  If not, then users
> of Emacs shouldn't have to learn Emacs Lisp either.
> 
> Especially people who have zero hours of previous experience working
> with Emacs.
> 
>> It is hard for the user to find them. Plus other problems with custom
>> and Customize described above that you don’t seem to mind. Aren’t they
>> confusing for even a not-so-new user? They surely confused and annoyed
>> me for a long time back then.
> 
> Easy Customization is documented in the manual, it is in the menu bar,
> and there is a link in the splash screen.
> 
> If it's confusing to new users, I think it should be fixed.

Customize and custom are not very confusing if one only uses Customize and 
doesn’t care how it works. It is confusing if one starts to also write some 
code in init.el and see some unexpected results.

If setup-wizard does not generate some code to insert but rather silently 
changes and save settings behind, I would be very confusing (about how and why 
thing happen in the way they are). But that’s me, maybe a beginner is totally 
fine with magic. I won’t argue with that.

My objective complaint is that I would need to insert keybinding configurations 
as code into init.el and the rest into custom. And they are separate and 
confusing for a user to modify/remove. Also code is more straightforward and 
simple. I can just delete them and their effect is gone, but not so much with 
custom. You need to navigate the Customize interface.

Yuan