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Re: Org mode and Emacs

From: Stefan Monnier
Subject: Re: Org mode and Emacs
Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2022 10:23:51 -0400
User-agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux)

Ihor Radchenko [2022-06-08 21:22:07] wrote:
> Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:
>> AFAICT the problem seen from Emacs, is that Org is large (even for
>> a basic uses, which occasionally leads to high load times) and that it
>> doesn't follow all the usual Emacs conventions, such as
>> overriding/remapping standard key-bindings (the resulting behaviors may
>> sometimes be similar to the standard one, but even when that's the case
>> the redefinition can easily bite the user).
> I am not sure if I follow the argument. Major modes are allowed to
> change defaults. For example, special modes often change truncate-lines
> value. Org mode is also tweaking defaults (yes, many of them). I do not
> see any problem here in general.
> If you have some specific cases when Org mode alters Emacs defaults in a
> way that bites the user, please give concrete examples. Otherwise, your
> criticism is not very constructive.

[ Alan gave one or two concrete examples of things that bit him.  ]

This is not a criticism, just a description of how Org is perceived from
the side of "old-time Emacs users who aren't Org users".
The key in what you wrote above is the "yes, many of them", which means
that even tho those tweaks are minor they sum up to something that
old-time users will almost inevitably bump into.

It's not a problem for Org itself, and there are good reasons for each
one of those tweaks, I'm sure, but it does create opposition to using
Org "in core", such as in etc/NEWS.

> This is reasonable. RMS also asked for this years back
> https://orgmode.org/list/E1kIPh1-0001Lu-Rg@fencepost.gnu.org
> Since we cannot start Org from scratch, factoring out individual modules
> is taking a lot of time and having the hostile attitudes expressed in
> some of the emails in this thread is not exactly encouraging.

I know it's a lot of work and I'm glad you (plural) are taking it on,
and I'm not very happy about some of the things that have been said in
that thread, which is why I tried to start this thread.


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