Re: Org mode and Emacs (was: Convert README.org to plain text README while installing package)

[Tim Cross]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
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>
>   > Making org mode syntax equivalent to texinfo syntax seems like a
>   > mistake to me.
>
> If this succeeds, it would be an important advance for the GNU system.
> We would replace Texinfo with a much cleaner system, easier to use and
> more maintainable.  Not solely for Emacs, but for ALL our
> documentation!
>

One key reason I worry about going down that road is that I suspect it
would complicate org's syntax. Two key benefits of org mode is that the
basic syntax is simple and it maps reasonably consistently acorss
different output formats. However, this flexibility does come at a cost.
To provide consistency across export formats, the basic formatting
'concepts' need to be somewhat 'generalised', which means at times you
will loose some of the more advanced or sophisticated formatting power
of some export back-ends. 

There are times, primarily where you need specialised or specific
formatting in a particular format, where you need to drop down to that
low level formatting 'language'. This is the org 'escape hatch', which
provides a way to better leverage off the specific capabilities of a
partricular back-end. For exmaple, you can embed latex in your document
which will be added to your formated output when you generate a PDF/PS
or *.tex output file. However, that formatting often won't work when you
use the same source file to generate an HTML or Markdown or ODT version
because there isn't a clear way to translate the latex to that format.

As pointed out elswhere in this thread, org could support missing
texinfo syntax using texinfo specific blocks. However, that isn't a
great experience from an authoring perspective. It is fine if you only
need to do it occasionally, but if you have to constantly add such
blocks in order to get really well formatted texinfo output, it will
become frustrating. Org also supports a powerful custom link format
which could be used to add missing syntax elements, but I'm unsure on
the usability of such an approach once you have a few such cusotm links.

If we want to avoid this situation, the syntax would need to be added to
the basic org syntax. However, that will also require all back-ends
being able to interpret that syntax in some 'sane' manner, which would
likley be considerable work and in some situations, could be extremely
difficult to do consistently with good results. It would also add to the
overall amount of syntax, potentially making it more complex and harder
to learn. 

Org mode is a great mode, especially for general documentation and
information management, todo and time management and to some extent, for
literate programming and/or 'executable' documents, such as lab books or
even some devops type applicaitons. Being able to have a single source
document which can be used to generate 'reasonable' versions in
different formats. You can even spend a bit of effort to customise
things so that you can get some pretty consistent advanced formatting in
some specific export formats. However, I often find when you need the
advanced formatting power of a specific back-end, your often better just
writing the document in that back-end as it tends to take less effort
and results in cleaner source. 

The other side of th coin is the on-going development of texinfo. I have
not written enough texinfo to really understand what the issues are
which drive the desire to replace it with something else, such as org. I
know there are some criticisms regarding output formats, but I also know
there is on-going work to improve that situation. Is the right strategy
to work on org mode so that it can replace texinfo or work on texinfo to
address limitations (or both?)?