Re: Proposal: new default bindings for winner and windmove

[Daniel Colascione]

On June 23, 2024 8:05:22 AM EDT, Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> wrote:
>Hello, Daniel.
>
>On Sun, Jun 23, 2024 at 07:14:25 -0400, Daniel Colascione wrote:
>
>
>> On June 23, 2024 6:05:13 AM EDT, Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> wrote:
>> >Hello, Stefan and Stefan.
>
>> >On Fri, Jun 21, 2024 at 15:39:09 -0500, Stefan Kangas wrote:
>> >> Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:
>
>> >> > A few years ago, Daniel suggested:
>> >> >> Likewise, for windmove, we can bind C-x 4 {left, right, up, down} and 
>> >> >> DWIM
>> >> >> for people automatically, enabled by default.
>
>> >> > AFAICT we still don't actually provide any keybindings for the windmove
>> >> > commands by default.  Did I miss a controversy about that, or did it
>> >> > just fall through the cracks?
>
>> >> FWIW, I don't remember any controversy either, so my guess is that it
>> >> just fell through the cracks.
>
>> >I would be against using C-x 4 <arrow keys> or C-x 5 <arrow-keys> for
>> >windmove (or anything else) by default.  Key sequences with arrow keys
>> >are too few, and too precious, to use for anything not critically
>> >important.
>
>> >windmove is not critically important.  Either it isn't used at all by a
>> >user (likely most users), or it is used all the time (by a small number
>> >of users).  In the latter case, the user will already have bound the
>> >commands to key sequences, since they are not useful called from M-x.
>
>> >It wasn't so long ago that we were removing default key bindings so as
>> >to free them up for other uses.  I don't think there's any reason to
>> >reverse that policy for windmove.  It just isn't important enough.
>
>> >There will be users who've bound these key bindings for their own uses.
>> >Let's not mess these users around.
>
>> The arrow keys don't have any meaning after C-x 4 today, and the
>> meaning I've been wanting to give them is useful and logical.
>
>It's useful to you, personally.  It wouldn't be useful to me.
>
>> I've been using the arrow key setup for years locally and it works very
>> well. It really does make window management much less annoying, and
>> it's not like we're going to use the arrow keys for anything else under
>> C-x 4.
>
>You've been using C-x 4 <arrow key> for your purposes, and other users
>will be using them for their purposes, likely to be different from yours.

So? Nobody is preventing those users doing what they want with their key 
bindings.  You're making a general purpose argument against having default key 
bindings at all. Why don't we just ship Emacs with an empty global keymap so 
we're not imposing on anyone?


>
>> As for windmove being used by users --- well, wouldn't it be nice if we
>> had metrics like other modern software projects?
>
>Xah Lee developed just such a program, inviting users to submit their
>results to him for aggregation.  This was around 10 years ago.  What came
>out was largely that different users use Emacs very differently - an
>everyday command for one user was totally unused by another.

Metrics with nontrivial opt-in suffer from selection bias. The sort of person 
who goes out of his way to enable telemetry is the sort of person who's going 
to do more customization than the average user.


>
>> But that aside, even if windmove is sparsely used today, might that be
>> because it's inconvenient to use without bindings?
>
>It might, but it's unlikely.  Even C-x 4 <up> would be inconvenient for
>me.  I have other-window bound to <f12> and rarely have more than three
>or four windows in a frame.  I'd hit <f12> two or three times rather
>going through the rigmarole of C-x 4 <up>.

So? How does providing default windmove bindings make your life worse?


>As I said, C-x 4 <arrow keys> are convenient to you for windmove
>commands.  They'll be convenient to other users for other commands in
>just the same way.  You're proposing imposing your setup on everybody.
>I'm against this.

They're not convenient for anyone if left unbound.