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[SUMMARY] #8 [[bbb:OrgMeetup]] on Wed, June 12, 19:00 UTC+3


From: Ihor Radchenko
Subject: [SUMMARY] #8 [[bbb:OrgMeetup]] on Wed, June 12, 19:00 UTC+3
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2024 08:32:40 +0000

It was a long discussion this time (almost 3 hours).
We ended up talking in-depth about Org mode development and some very
technical aspects of it.

- As usual, we started from posting Sacha's News, but with a bit of a twist
  - Since recently, https://orgmode.org shows Org mode-related news on the 
front page
    - Mailing list feature discussions, polls, and announcements
    - Org mode section of Sacha's News

- Suhail asked about the status of 3 bugs reports posted on Org mailing list 
recently

  - 87h6e134sp.fsf@gmail.com/">https://yhetil.org/orgmode/87h6e134sp.fsf@gmail.com/
    - This one is about completion of :async header argument in
      "shell" blocks, where "shell" is not literally shell, but
      "bash", "csh", etc. The completion only works for "shell"
      blocks, but not for other blocks.
      - This is simply an omission in ob-shell.el
      - ob-shell is implemented in the following way
        1. Generic "shell" backend is defined
        2. Other backends like "bash", "csh", "fish" (full list in
           ~org-babel-shell-names~) are defined based on the generic
           backend in ~org-babel-shell-initialize~
        3. ~org-babel-shell-initialize~ fails to define
           ~org-babel-header-args:<shell name>~ - variable used to
           compute completions.
        4. The fix is easy; just need time to get there.
           - [2024-06-22 Sat] Fixed.
             - 
https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs/org-mode.git/commit/?id=e666660c

  - 87cyop3445.fsf@gmail.com/">https://yhetil.org/orgmode/87cyop3445.fsf@gmail.com/
    - This is a similar issue related to ~org-babel-shell-initialize~
    - This time, ~org-babel-<shell name>-initiate-session~ is not
      defined for specific shells
    - The problem is more severe than completion though. It renders
      =C-u C-c '= (~org-edit-special~) unusable.
      - ~org-edit-special~ /without/ prefix argument opens code block at point 
for editing
      - ~org-edit-special~ /with/ prefix argument should instead open
        associated session for code block with =:session ...= header arg
        - Because of the bug, this does not currently work for shell blocks
      - [2024-06-22 Sat] Fixed.
        - 
https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs/org-mode.git/commit/?id=5b366a73
        - 
https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs/org-mode.git/commit/?id=5e9ac146

  - 87cyonhuq3.fsf@gmail.com/">https://yhetil.org/orgmode/87cyonhuq3.fsf@gmail.com/
    - This report is about regression of =#+bind: ...= keywords in the new Org 
9.7
    - Fixed. 
https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs/org-mode.git/commit/?id=96113f3b5

- Karl Voit (publicvoit) shared his recent bug report for helm-org-rifle

  - https://github.com/alphapapa/org-rifle/issues/85

  - The problem he experiences is with parts of outline path being
    invisible in the candidates buffer as long as they are folded

  - The likely reason with the way folding is done in Org mode 9.6.
    Org 9.6 (and Org 9.7 for Emacs <29) use 'invisible text property
    to fold headings. If such folded headings are copied verbatim from
    the Org buffer, they may remain invisible.
    - If my guess is right, setting ~org-fold-core-style~ to ~overlays~
      should make things work again in helm-org-rifle

  - Note that Org 9.7 now moves towards restoring the old approach -
    using overlays to fold staff. This is because built-in isearch.el,
    query-replace-regexp, and a number of external packages (like
    evil) only support searching (and revealing!) invisible text when
    it is hidden via overlays. (I was hoping that it can be possible
    to work around such limitation, but constant stream of bug reports
    and growing pile of fragile workarounds proved that text hidden
    via text properties cannot reliably searched in practice; alas...)
    - As an unfortunate side effect of this, I had to revert feature
      introduced in Org 9.6 - searching inside hidden parts of the
      links
    - See https://orgmode.org/Changes.html (It is no longer possible
      to reveal hidden parts of the links during isearch)


- We went on talking about org-ql vs. helm-org-rifle

  - org-ql is generally more flexible as it allows more than just
    plain text + outline search
    - In org-ql, one can quickly match headings by specific
      properties, tags, timestamps, etc
    - In addition, org-ql, since recently, has integration with
      built-in completion frameworks, and their extensions like vertico.
    - Of course, helm interface is also there - helm-org-ql

  - However, as it turns out, org-ql lacks one important feature Karl
    particularly likes.
    
    In helm-org-rifle, when you enter search string interactively, if
    the match is inside a heading, the line containing match is
    displayed in addition to the outline path to the heading. This
    provides a valuable additional context - you can briefly look what
    exactly inside a heading is matched.

    - [2024-06-15 Sat] alphapapa, in
      https://github.com/alphapapa/org-rifle/issues/85, pointed out
      that one can set ~org-ql-completing-read-snippet-function~ to
      ~org-ql-completing-read-snippet-function~ - this will replicate
      what helm-org-rifle does in ~org-ql-completing-read~ (but not in
      ~helm-org-ql~).

  - For ~helm-org-ql~ one may need to fiddle with the source code of
    ~helm-org-ql-source~ to add this kind of feature
    

- Tim continued his struggle with an elusive bug he experiences when
  setting tags (C-c C-q) in large Org buffers - setting tags takes
  forever for him. (There is infinite loop likely lurking somewhere)

  - His last observation was that setting ~org-element-use-cache~ to nil
    or running =M-x org-element-cache-reset= makes settings tags work
    again and not hang (for some time, at least)

  - I can guess two possibilities now:
    1. Some problem with org-element-cache mishandling headline boundaries
    2. Infinite loop in ~org-element-cache-map~
       
https://list.orgmode.org/orgmode/CH3PR84MB342450FE12DC716A9FA65EADC50D2@CH3PR84MB3424.NAMPRD84.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM/

  - For now, I asked Tim to enable cache self-checks 
(~org-element--cache-self-verify~)
    - If something shows up there, we got a problem in the cache
    - Otherwise, it is likely ~org-element-cache-map~
    - In any case, ~org-element-cache-map~ should be rewritten and simplified 
sooner than later


- Karl shared his config snippet that allows updating link description
  according to its source
  https://graz.social/@publicvoit/112582948662128779
  - For Urls, it fetches the web page title
  - For Org id: links, it looks up the linked heading title

  - He had a technical question about how to update the link description from 
Elisp
  - Now, he uses interactive
    : (org-insert-link nil nil myheadingtitle);; add description
    - The above works, but it is too interactive - this particular
      call to ~org-insert-link~ will query for the link path, happening
      to use path at point as the default. So, Karl has to hit <RET>
      <RET> needlessly for confirmation.

    - To make ~org-insert-link~ work non-interactively (from Elisp), one
      needs to supply two optional arguments: LINK-LOCATION and DESCRIPTION
      : (org-insert-link &optional COMPLETE-FILE LINK-LOCATION DESCRIPTION)

      See the docstring for details.
    - To retrieve link location at point, it is possible to use Org element API
      https://orgmode.org/worg/dev/org-element-api.html

      : (org-element-property :raw-link (org-element-context))

    - Also, I noticed that another part of the "auto-description" code
      uses a function that is not designed for Elisp API:
      ~org-open-at-point~
      - ~org-open-at-point~ fiddles with window arrangement and using is
        from Elisp may cause unexpected results
      - Instead, it is better to use ~org-link-open~ that only jumps to
        the link target (as defined by :follow link parameter):
        : (org-link-open (org-element-context))

- Since karthink (one of the authors of the WIP async LaTeX preview
  feature) was around, I shared my major WIP work on Org mode development.
  (My work will affect their WIP branch)
  
  For the last half year, I am working on a large refactoring
  touching all parts of Org mode code. The main objectives are:
  1. Avoid situations when loading almost *any* part of Org mode
     requires loading the *whole Org mode codebase*
  2. Make Org mode libraries less scary to contribute to by reducing
     their size.
  3. Minimize uses of global variables when they are not strictly
     necessary. Or, at least, document them.

  In practice, it means splitting Org mode into smaller sub-libraries
  and carefully reviewing all the ~require~, ~declare-function~, and
  dynamically scoped ~defvar~ statements. (this may sound easy, I
  initially hoped to spend a few weeks max on this task; but here we
  are, 6 months later, 400+ commits ahead of main)

  The WIP branch is available at
  https://git.sr.ht/~tartan92/org-mode/log/feature/refactor-deeps-v2
  (yup, it is already the second attempt; first several tries failed
  miserably with Org mode in completely broken state)

  - The most visible changes in the branch are many, *many* new
    libraries. I separated huge old files like =org.el=, =org-agenda.el=,
    =org-table.el=, =org-list.el=, =ob-core.el=, =org-clock.el=, and
    =org-compat.el= into many smaller helper libraries.

    - This includes the existing LaTeX preview code being put into a
      separate =org-preview-latex.el=, which may create problems when
      merging WIP async preview branch and refactored Org version.

    - Overall 127 Org libraries will be turned into 263 (WIP!) smaller
      libraries. The whopping +135 libraries more...


  - Org major mode will leave in separate =org-mode.el=, which only
    loads strictly necessary libs, without options user commands or
    extra Org functionality. All the extras will be autoloaded
    instead - when a key binding is pressed.
    - =org.el= will still load everything, so that old packages and
      configs that do ~(require 'org)~ or ~(use-package org...)~ are not
      broken. Eventually, we will ask users to avoid loading =org.el=
      and instead load more specific libraries.
  
  - Many external optional libraries will also be loaded just-in-time,
    when their functionality is needed

    - For example, =ol-gnus.el= - the library implementing links to GNUS
      buffers, will no longer load the whole GNUS when Org mode is
      loaded. It will instead do it when we need to follow an actual
      gnus: link.

    - The way it is done is placing ~(require '<third-party-lib>)~ not
      directly as a top-level form in =org-lib.el=, but inside
      individual functions in that lib.
      - Suhail commented that top-level ~(require ...)~ are treated
        differently by the byte-compiler implying that something may
        not be right if we move things inside functions
        - This is not a problem though. The main effect of top-level
          require is that byte-compiler loads that library at the
          compile time, and knows which variables and functions are
          defined there.
        - The main effect of putting requires into functions is that
          we get a bunch of compile-time warnings as byte-compiler
          does not know functions/variables coming from third-party
          libs and complains about them
          - It can be suppressed by ~(defvar <name>)~ or
            ~(declare-function ...)~ forms.
      - karthink also commented that runtime ~(require '<library>)~ may
        hit performance because is must search through the whole
        ~features~ list (list of all the libraries loaded into current
        Emacs session)
        - It is not a big deal in practice though

          : (benchmark-run 10000 (featurep 'does-not-exist))
          : ;; => 0.1 sec or 10 ┬Ás per require
        - Even if it were, we could ask Emacs devs to optimize this by
          caching loading status in the library symbol itself
          : (put 'foo :loaded t)
          : (get 'foo :loaded) ; => t

  - One more aspect of the changes is attempting yet another fix for
    the everlasting problem with "mixed" Org mode installations we
    face every major Org release - when some Org libs are loaded from
    built-in Org mode version while other libs are loaded from newer
    Org. This often results in random breakage people keep reporting.

    - Emacs 30 recently introduced a tool to address this problem somewhat:
      ~require-with-check~. Unlike simple ~require~, ~require-with-check~
      checks if a different version of the requested library has been
      added to the ~load-path~, and re-loads it as necessary. This way,
      if newer Org gets loaded, it can make sure that the versions of
      Org sub-libraries are all coming from the correct version of Org mode.

      - The problem with this idea is that Org codebase does not
        currently use ~require~ everywhere. Instead, many places in Org
        simply rely upon other Org libraries already loaded
        (~declare-function~ statements are everywhere).
        And we cannot simply add more ~require-with-check~ everywhere -
        many Org libs struggle from circular dependencies. For
        example, =org-agenda.el= requires =org.el= to be loaded and =org.el=
        expects =org-agenda.el= to be loaded.
        - Untangling these circular deps has proven to be the hardest
          part of the ongoing refactoring.

  - Splitting Org into multiple small libraries is also a step forward
    toward more modular Org and to converting some Org-specific
    libraries to proper Emacs libraries, as requested by RMS:
    https://list.orgmode.org/E1kIkxv-0007iy-Av@fencepost.gnu.org/

    - Karthink asked which libraries would be good candidates for upstreaming.
      Here is the list, naming the existing libraries, and the
      libraries that are a part of WIP branch:
      - org-agenda-undo :: undoing changes in multiple buffers at once
        This is the way undo works in agenda buffers, undoing changes
        in multiple headlines changed from agenda, even when they live
        in different Org files.
      - org-capture :: Adding quick notes is not limited to adding
        them to Org mode; in fact, org-capture is a development of the original 
remember.el, which is a part of Emacs core.
        See 
https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-orgmode/2023-12/msg00412.html
      - org-clock-notify :: System notifications
      - org-diary-lib :: Org extensions for diary-lib.el
      - org-duration :: Library to manipulate durations in
        human-readable format (like 1d 3h 5min)
      - org-fold-core :: Generic folding API
      - org-idle :: Advanced idle time tracking (not just for Emacs
        idleness, but for system idle time as well)
      - org-macs :: has many small helper functions; some may be of
        interest upstream
      - org-persist :: generic cache API
      - org-preview-image :: Image preview. Does not have to be
        limited to Org mode buffers.
      - org-preview-latex :: Same thing.
      - org-protocol :: Processing external input into Emacs (from
        command line, from clicked Urls as url handler). Unlike
        running commands directly (which is unsafe), =org-protocol= can
        be used for safe interaction with external processes
      - org-time :: Extra functions to work with Emacs time data.
        Some functions might be of interest upstream.
      - org-timer :: (almost) generic timer for Emacs
      - org-track-markers :: Keeping relative positions of markers
        when cutting/pasting text in buffers. This is the way agenda
        does not get broken by cutting/pasting/refiling the underlying
        headings around.

- In the context of =org-agenda.el= split into multiple smaller libs,
  Ilya Chernyshov commented about sub-optimality of agenda searches,
  when agenda looks for timestamps.

  - Org mode has parser cache, but this cache only goes down to
    paragraph level. Markup inside paragraphs (like timestamps) is not
    cached.

  - Such caching is planned to be done in future, although even now,
    the agenda search is fairly fast in practice.
    - In the past, agenda struggled from accounting for property/tag
      inheritance, but this is no longer a problem because properties
      and tags are parts of headings, which do get cached.

  - Ilya also commented that org-ql searches for timestamps very fast
    - Agenda is actually on par with org-ql these days wrt to timestamps.
      In fact, AFAIR, the way agenda searches timestamps was one of
      the things that inspired org-ql.

- Ilya further asked about plans to merge org-ql in Org core
  - We do have such plans
  - See https://github.com/alphapapa/org-ql/issues/409
    - Alphapapa wants to merge ts.el to Emacs first
      - https://github.com/alphapapa/ts.el/issues/29
  - As usual, everything is a subject of free time available to the
    contributors. So, things are progressing, but slowly.


- visuwesh reported a bug with WIP async LaTeX preview branch
  - It does not work with pdf-tools, because pdf-tools is using
    ~org-create-formula-image~.  The function is supposed to work,
    (although it will be obsoleted), but it does not.
  - Karthink suggested reporting the details to Org ML or to TEC's github repo
    - https://github.com/tecosaur/org-latex-preview-todos/issues/34
  - Original bug report: https://github.com/vedang/pdf-tools/issues/283
  - We looked inside pdf-tools to figure out how pdf-tools has
    anything to do with latex preview
    - ~pdf-annot-print-annotation-latex-maybe~ is using 
~org-create-formula-image~
    - ... and the way it use it is sub-optimal
    - It is not the call to ~org-create-formula-image~, but the fact that they 
have to
      : (require 'org)   ;; org-create-formula-image
      Load the whole(!) Org mode just for that function.
      - It clearly shows why splitting Org libraries is a good idea
      - visuwesh also commented that similar situation is with
        comint-mime package (https://github.com/astoff/comint-mime):
        it uses Org's LaTeX preview functionality
        
https://github.com/astoff/comint-mime/blob/ca278064dac431b8c3f72ab1b860bf9c9b8d8d60/comint-mime.el#L179
      - In future, the idea is to discourage ~(require 'org)~ in
        third-party packages and instead load more specific libraries
        where the necessary functions live

- Jeff Trull asked about using =org-element= in Org tables
  - I first misunderstood the question and started talking about
    parsing table formulas (it is done using ancient regexp-based
    code) and went ahead talking about new parsing features in Emacs
    like PEG https://elpa.gnu.org/packages/peg.html
    - PEG is an alternative way to describe syntax, especially
      recursive syntax (which Org mode is)
    - And PEG has become a part of Emacs since a few months ago.
      (it took over 2 years, but we are finally there:
      https://yhetil.org/emacs-devel/875yvtbbn3.fsf@ericabrahamsen.net/)

  - However, the actual question was not about table formulas, but
    about how Org mode edits tables in Org buffers (swap rows/columns;
    alter cells; re-aligns tables; writes formula results, etc)
    - Currently, everything is done very manually, hard-coding for the
      current table syntax and not using Org parser
    - Ideally, we indeed want to make use of the parser as much as
      possible, so that we can extend formula syntax more easily
    - However, Org element API currently lacks sophisticated functions
      to edit Org text in buffers
      - We have very rudimentary ~org-element-interpret-data~, but not
        much more
      - Various parts of Org instead employ various kludges to edit staff
        - =org-list= has semi-independent parser and editing API
        - =org-table= uses old regexp-based approach
        - headline editing is using parser partially only
      - So, a proper editing API is necessary before we can properly
        use Org parser to edit things
        - One inspiration may be https://github.com/ndwarshuis/org-ml,
          although there are questions to the performance of that
          library
        
- Karthink asked about technical details of how Org mode parser code
  is able to respond to C-g even when it is stuck (that is: not just
  exit, but interact with the user asking to press C-g multiple times
  in order to force-terminate the parser).
  - Karthink assumed that Org mode is using ~while-no-input~ Emacs macro
  - Org mode does not use ~while-no-input~ - ~while-no-input~ terminates
    on any input event, not just on C-g. Instead, Org mode let-binds
    ~inhibit-quit~ around critical parts of the parser that may trash
    the parser state if exited without cleanup. Then, to retain the
    ability for users to terminate the parser if there is a bug in it
    (there used to be many bugs related to cache here a few releases
    back), Org checks ~quit-flag~ to see if C-g was pressed, displays a
    message, and only runs full parser cleanup when
    ~org-element--cache-interrupt-C-g-max-count~ is reached.
    
    See ~org-element--parse-to~ for the details.
  - More generally, Org mode parser implements old-school
    asynchronisity using timers.  Curious users may explore the
    docstrings of ~org-element-cache-sync-idle-time~,
    ~org-element-cache-sync-duration~, and ~org-element-cache-sync-break~.

- Jeff Trull commented that he made a custom extension to Org mode
  parser last year. We did not go into the details, but went on
  discussing extending the Org mode syntax
  - The entry point is the commentary in org-element.el that details
    what needs to be done
  - In short, one needs to write a new parser function, a new
    interpreter function, add the new element/object to
    org-element-all-elements/objects variable, and modify
    org-element--current-element to fit the new syntax element into the
    parser priorities.
  - We currently have one new major change in Org syntax being
    discussed: "inline special blocks" (tentative name)
    https://list.orgmode.org/orgmode/875xwqj4tl.fsf@localhost/
    - The idea is to create something similar to special blocks
      (paragraph-level element) that can represent custom type of
      paragraph data (notes, sidebars, boxes, alerts, etc: see
      https://github.com/alhassy/org-special-block-extras that
      demonstrates how flexible it can be)
    - Unlike special blocks, inline special blocks are, well...,
      inline. They represent custom markup
      - The plan is to allow in-document definition of inline special
        block exports; custom faces; etc
        - In a sense, they are like custom link types, but without
          limitation that links cannot contain other links and that
          link path is interpreted verbatim
        - They will also be able to contain attributes, which will
          solve long-standing problem that we cannot pass export
          attributes to images on export (like image width)
        - also, a lot more; all the details in the linked mailing list
          thread
        - We already have experimental branch to play around, but
          still discussing the details of the syntax and the features
          that will need to be added

- (I do not remember whom here, probably Karthink :]) but we also
  discussed the potential to extend async latex preview to other kinds
  of text: latex, images, html files, pdf files, typst code snippets, etc
  - We have one unfinished (but working) attempt to preview html inline in Org 
mode
    https://github.com/alejandrogallo/org-inline-webkit
    It would be nice is somebody take that repo and finish it to the
    state ready for merging into Org mode
    - HTML previews will move towards feature parity with ipython and
      similar notebooks that can produce interactive graphs and
      visualizations
  - Also, the way WIP async preview library works (in its core) is not
    limited to previewing latex. One can implement other kinds of
    previews, like typst. All that is needed is a way to qeury typst
    fragment at point in some way
  - In fact, we already have some proof of concept code that goes even
    further and extends LaTeX (for now, just LaTeX) preview
    functionality _outside_ Org mode, in arbitrary buffers
    https://list.orgmode.org/orgmode/87edbhljr7.FSF@hyperspace/
    - Ideally, the preview might be made almost completely independent
      from what major mode is currently in use
      - This might be done using ~thingatpt~ Emacs library (built-in)
        - A recall Yuan Fu talking about integrating thingatpt with tree-sitter
          
https://yhetil.org/emacs-devel/5E7F2A94-4377-45C0-8541-7F59F3B54BA1@gmail.com/
        - And we can integrate Org mode parser with thingatpt as well
          (we already partially do, see ~org--link-at-point~ and
          ~org--bounds-of-link-at-point~)

- P.S. It has been really long discussion :P

:comments:
[17:44] Ihor Radchenko : Official start in 15 minutes
[17:44] Ihor Radchenko : Meanwhile, check out the latest Org news at 
https://orgmode.org/
[17:44] Ihor Radchenko : We added Sacha's News to the front page for 
convenience :)
[17:57] Tim : Hi, this is Tim
[18:01] suhail : nothing on my side, but if we're short on topics, i'll mention 
3 recent items i posted in the mailing list:
- 87h6e134sp.fsf@gmail.com/">https://yhetil.org/orgmode/87h6e134sp.fsf@gmail.com/
- 87cyop3445.fsf@gmail.com/">https://yhetil.org/orgmode/87cyop3445.fsf@gmail.com/
- 87cyonhuq3.fsf@gmail.com/">https://yhetil.org/orgmode/87cyonhuq3.fsf@gmail.com/
[18:02] suhail : one bug report, and the other 2 it's not clear if they are 
bugs or if user-error
[18:03] Karl Voit (publicvoit) : I just wrote a feature request for org-rifle: 
https://github.com/alphapapa/org-rifle/issues/85 maybe somebody has an answer 
so that we could collaboratively close this with a proper answer?
[18:11] Ihor Radchenko : org-fold-core-style
[18:14] Ihor Radchenko : https://github.com/alphapapa/org-ql/tree/master 
provides helm and vertico interfaces
[18:14] Ihor Radchenko : and allows tag/outline filtering
[18:14] Ihor Radchenko : and much more
[18:17] Tim : 78170  99% - command-execute
       78124  99%  - funcall-interactively
       78124  99%   - org-set-tags-command
       78124  99%    - org-get-buffer-tags
       68151  86%     - org-element-cache-map
       38554  49%      - org-element-at-point
        3839   4%       - org-element--parse-to
        2030   2%        - org-element--cache-find
         678   0%           #<compiled -0x1b52c4432bc3eb83>
          21   0%           org-knuth-hash
          99   0%          #<compiled 0x8f2ae6f02c727dd>
          44   0%          org-element--cache-active-p
         117   0%         org-element--cache-active-p
         101   0%         derived-mode-p
          41   0%         org-element--cache-sync
          39   0%         org-element--cache-verify-element
        2881   3%      - #<compiled 0x13daf1653b872335>
[...]
[18:18] Ihor Radchenko : (setq org-element--cache-self-verify t)
[18:24] Ihor Radchenko : helm-org-ql-source
[18:34] Ilya Chernyshov : Hi
[18:35] Ihor Radchenko : https://orgmode.org/worg/dev/org-element-api.html
[18:38] Ihor Radchenko : org-link-open
[18:40] karthink : I see
[18:40] karthink : Can you provide more details about what you're planning to 
do?
[18:41] karthink : Most of the changes in our feature branch are limited to the 
new org-latex-preview.el file
[18:41] karthink : M-1
[18:41] karthink : Use M-1 or M-2
[18:43] karthink : This is a great idea
[18:43] Karl Voit (publicvoit) : Sorry, I need to leave already - thanks for 
all the input I need to digest in the next days ;-)
[18:44] Ilya Chernyshov : If I remember correctly, org-element hasn't cached 
active/inactive timestamps inside body (except for scheduled, deadline). Has 
this been changed in the latest release? That could increase the speed of 
subsequent search in org-agenda

These problems are already solved in org-ql, the subsequent search results are 
instant

I also heard that you and alphapapa are planning to merge org-ql to org core. 
Do you think it will happen this year?
[19:02] suhail : i was under the impression that the byte-compiler treats 
top-level requires especially. and so if a require is within a defun, it's 
handled somewhat differently
[19:02] suhail : and that the latter is to be avoided (for reasons independent 
from performance considerations)
[19:09] Ihor Radchenko : https://github.com/alphapapa/org-ql/issues/409
[19:09] Ihor Radchenko : https://github.com/alphapapa/ts.el/issues/29
[19:17] oylenshpeegul : I have another meeting coming up. Thanks, Ihor! Thanks, 
all!
[19:23] karthink : I can hear you Ihor
[19:23] Welcome to <b>[[bbb:OrgMeetup]]</b>!<br /><br />For help on using 
BigBlueButton see these (short) <a href="https://www.bigbluebutton.org/html5"; 
target="_blank"><u>tutorial videos</u></a>.<br /><br />To join the audio bridge 
click the phone button.  Use a headset to avoid causing background noise for 
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href="https://docs.bigbluebutton.org/"; target="_blank"><u>BigBlueButton</u></a>.
[19:26] visuwesh : Does the org-create-formula-image function in org-compat in 
the async latex preview branch need more work?  It seems like 
org--get-display-dpi is accidentally removed, and there are other 
incompatibilities like new format options in org-preview-latex-default-process, 
fg=auto not being correctly handled, etc.

This function is still used in pdf-tools, and comint-mime.  I am not sure how 
pdf-tools can handle the new async code since it needs to show the image in a 
tooltip.
[19:35] visuwesh : Yea, its there but it odesnt work
[19:35] visuwesh : yes and some more
[19:35] visuwesh : The problem is the old user option is an alias to the new 
option
[19:35] visuwesh : so everything breaks
[19:36] visuwesh : And you might need to look at handling auto in uhh
[19:36] visuwesh : one min
[19:36] visuwesh : yea, i will send a mail to the ML
[19:37] visuwesh : emacs-orgmode@gnu.org?
[19:37] Ihor Radchenko : Yup, just report this to Org mailing list
[19:37] Ihor Radchenko : https://orgmode.org/manual/Feedback.html#Feedback
[19:37] karthink : Or here:
https://github.com/tecosaur/org-latex-preview-todos/issues
[19:37] karthink : But mailing list is fine
[19:37] visuwesh : ah didn't know about the github repo, thx for the link
[19:38] Ihor Radchenko : https://github.com/vedang/pdf-tools/issues/283
[19:38] visuwesh : When creating the tooltip for text annotations
[19:38] visuwesh : seee pdf-annot-print-annotation-latex-maybe
[19:38] visuwesh : Yea
[19:40] visuwesh : Will the async code work nicely with tooltips though?
[19:41] visuwesh : AHHH
[19:41] visuwesh : okkk, thanks for the hint
[19:42] visuwesh : btw, the same problem also exists in comint-mime but the 
latex functionality there is disabled by default
[19:42] visuwesh : 
https://github.com/astoff/comint-mime/blob/ca278064dac431b8c3f72ab1b860bf9c9b8d8d60/comint-mime.el#L179
[19:43] visuwesh : yep
[19:43] visuwesh : these two were the packages that burnt me when i switched to 
the async code mainly because of the new api
[19:47] visuwesh : yea, im happy to not have to wait for like 15 mins when i 
need to regen previews for whatever reason
[19:48] visuwesh : (when i was using the old sync code)
[19:52] visuwesh : afair i dont think so
[19:52] visuwesh : its just a temp buffer iirc
[19:52] visuwesh : yep
[19:54] visuwesh : okay thank you.  i will have a look at it when i have the 
itme
[19:56] Jeff Trull : I didn't understand everything but I enjoyed it :)
[19:57] Jeff Trull : No, interesting things!
[19:57] Jeff Trull : magic
[19:57] Tim : And again: Thanks for your work!
[19:58] Jeff Trull : What's the state of org-element in tables?
[19:58] Jeff Trull : It seems like some parts like formulas are treated as a 
string IIRC
[20:00] Jeff Trull : Also it seemed like the table code used a lot of regex
[20:01] karthink : I have a somewhat technical question: where do you use 
while-no-input in the org-element parsing code?  I couldn't find it. (Except 
when it gets stuck, creating the parse tree appears to be fully interruptible, 
it never slows down Emacs)
[20:01] Jeff Trull : Would it make sense to integrate element more into 
org-table.el?
[20:03] Ihor Radchenko : https://elpa.gnu.org/packages/peg.html
[20:04] Jeff Trull : ooh I have a completely different use for this. When was 
it added?
[20:04] karthink : It was added a couple of months ago I think
[20:04] visuwesh : This year iirc
[20:04] Ihor Radchenko : https://github.com/ndwarshuis/org-ml
[20:05] Jeff Trull : I see. org-element is kind of static
[20:05] Jeff Trull : Perfect for exporters, maybe not as good for editing
[20:06] Ihor Radchenko : org-element-interpret-data
[20:06] Jeff Trull : I got my answer
[20:06] Jeff Trull : I made a custom parser for something last year
[20:07] Ihor Radchenko : peg is a part of Emacs since few months ago
[20:16] Ihor Radchenko : 
https://list.orgmode.org/orgmode/875xwqj4tl.fsf@localhost/
[20:16] Ihor Radchenko : inline special blocks
[20:23] Ihor Radchenko : https://github.com/alejandrogallo/org-inline-webkit
[20:23] Ihor Radchenko : preview html
[20:23] Ihor Radchenko : inline, with rendering
[20:23] Ihor Radchenko : (proof of concept - it would be nice if someone 
finishes it up to be ready for inclusion)
[20:25] Ihor Radchenko : links are supported by thingatpt
[20:33] Ihor Radchenko : org--link-at-point
[20:33] Ihor Radchenko : org--bounds-of-link-at-point
[20:34] Jeff Trull : thanks for the interesting content I'll see you all next 
time
[20:35] karthink : I have to leave as well, thank you for the meetup Ihor
:end:

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>



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