Re: [Ghm-discuss] The posh talk does not complain with the policy

[Krista Grothoff]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

On 08/13/2014 11:14 AM, Alfred M. Szmidt wrote:
> It takes a constitution of steel, or a principled rejection of 
> relentless input from outside, for a woman to survive and thrive
> in yesterday's hacker culture.
> 
> You are claiming that women are feeble persons with no means of 
> standing up and saying their voice in `yesterdays culture' and
> need your help in todays, you are also assuming that women are some
> perfect beings that never make equally crude, and funny jokes.  How
> is that not offensive?
> 

Ok, I've had to watch this conversation scroll by for days now, and I
think I've had about enough.

I agree with John, for what it's worth. I've never wanted to be seen
as a "woman in tech" or anything else, and I certainly don't want
anyone else's help doing my thing. That said, even big fat ugly women
like myself get a whole lot of shit from people within the culture who
simply presume that you're some sort of groupie (where that comes from
I can't even begin to guess), you didn't pay your dues, etc. You get
kicked around no matter how smart you are, and that's just reality.

And I DON'T ask for help with it. I don't want it, and I sure as Hell
don't want sympathy. But it's bloody demoralizing.

I make plenty of crude jokes. I don't ask anyone else not to. But I
*DO* think that when someone makes a presentation that plays on
stereotypes, or a talk is given on how to get laid, or strippers
appear, or whatever, that goes too far. And it does happen.

Did I make the policy? No. Do I think it's poorly worded? Probably.
But clearly somebody at some point felt the need to state, "look,
we're not going to promote brogrammer/white-guy stereotypes here, and
if someone does something shitty, please feel like you have recourse".

Because sometimes you need recourse. You may not think so, but you
only have your own point of view to judge from, which probably has not
had to deal with this crap. I'm guessing, anyway. I could be wrong.

> The US, and Americans, in general, are overly sterialized when it 
> comes to interaction with other people that have different values. 
> And we can see this by this dicussion.

Not everyone in this discussion is American.

I personally think the talk should go forward and everyone should
agree that afterward, if something was over the line, we can use it as
a starting point to talk about things. I'd like to see it, and *not*
to sit there taking notes on how the speaker violated policies. I'm
not the opinion police, personally.

My personal guess is that no one is going to give a shit. But that's
just me. I probably have a dirtier sense of humor than most of the
rest of you, but I do know that it pays to be aware of your audience.
I'm not going to make jokes about sex in front of old Catholic
grandmas if I don't want to offend them, and I wouldn't make jokes
about how idiotic men are in front of a bunch of dudes. (I wouldn't
make them anyway, because that's not something I agree with, but
that's beside the point.)

That doesn't mean you have to wear a muzzle, it means try not to be an
asshole.

> 
> It has a direct negative effect, people are afraid of giving
> speeches and attending the conference, or wasting time writing
> treaties about John Locke and freedom of form, US income tax, and
> the French Revolution.
> 

If my kid were afraid of the dark, it wouldn't make it my fault for
insisting that the lights should be turned off at night, nor would
that make turning off the light the wrong thing. People are
responsible for their own reactions.

Now, I agree that the wording may be so broad that it's chilling. If
so, fix it. But do we really need a pissing match on the mailing list
that goes on for days? Because I've lived comfortably with hacker
culture for a long time now and am now really reconsidering how much I
want to participate this week.

Policies aren't the only things that create chilling effects.

- - Krista
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1
Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/
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=vrbc
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----