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Re: [Health] GNU Health + Biometrics


From: Marc DM
Subject: Re: [Health] GNU Health + Biometrics
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2015 22:36:52 +0000

Regarding the use of biometrics for patient identification. There are some issues that I think the pro-biometric folks are ignoring.

Outside of DNA sequences, biometrics can be modified temporarily and permanently. They can also be copied and reused by others. This is not just in science fiction movies. Additionally, lower cost finger print readers will probably be less accurate.

My suggestion is that the process by which you will verify a person's identity for initial registration in the system, the point at which you will take their finger print(s), be the point at which you take their photo. Everyone has a face (I think).

I can understand your (collective) desire to validate patient identity. However, I think that in cases where a patient wishes to remain anonymous, we should facilitate that.

 ---
Marc

Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2015 11:55:47 -0400
From: Eka P Adiredja <address@hidden>
To: General GNU Health discussion and help <address@hidden>
Subject: Re: [Health] GNU Health
Message-ID:
   <address@hidden>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Hi all,

What about for some of handicapped people that might not be able to use the
biometrics id? I guess, we are ignoring those minority in this discussion?
Otherwise, then you would need secondary option to ID patient, then that
would add to overall cost.

Thanks
Eka
On Jun 16, 2015 11:51 AM, "David Bruchmann" <address@hidden>
wrote:

Hi C?dric,

On Tue, Jun 16, 2015 at 10:35 PM, C?dric Krier <address@hidden>
wrote:

On 2015-06-16 22:12, David Bruchmann wrote:
But why would a patient want to prevent you to find its medical

records?
Here are now a few examples where the patient might like to hide his

known
identity:

1) Getting another verification (by another doctor perhaps) because he
never is satisfied with the existing ones.
2) Getting more Medication than he needs, for selling or "helping"

someone
without required consultation
3) Getting a clean patient record concerning any invoices


Those sounds more like a government issue that an hospital.


Mhm, I don't know where you see the government issues here but be assured,
if the cards are working without reliable identification some of the
mentioned options will be used.

Usually any way where is seen a real or supposed option to get something
desired is used.
It would be naive to think that self produced social numbers without
further identification really point to the right person and that they

do it
only once.


But it is what is done here in Europe.


Right and sometimes the cards are borrowed to get a free verification and
treatment for a friend without insurance, perhaps even for money.

Therefore the usage of biometrics perhaps never allows to get the real

data
of a person but it grants that you always talk to the expected person.


Using biometrics (I don't know exactly which one you are talking) still
seems to me very expensive, intrusive and not necessary reliable. It
also brings a lot of concerns about privacy.

You could still emit a kind of ID card from the hospital with picture
etc. and to get one a patient should provide some official document to
proof who he is.

But any way, which biometrics would you want to use? On which hardware?
<http://www.b2ck.com/>


Using fingerprints is a relative cheap option and it's easy to install
fingerprint-readers on many systems.
Those readers are used in many governments, airports, etc. and therefore
there must be an affordable software too.
And even it's a high price perhaps it will be cheaper than being cheated
;-)

Best Regards,
David

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Message: 3
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2015 08:36:52 -0700
From: Andy Aroditis <address@hidden>
To: "address@hidden" <address@hidden>
Subject: Re: [Health] Health Digest, Vol 47, Issue 14
Message-ID: <address@hidden>
Content-Type: text/plain;   charset=us-ascii

Have you looked at companies that provide EMPI software. They use demographic data to identify patients uniquely. They can use name, address, phones, gender and date of birth to name a few.

On Jun 16, 2015, at 8:12 AM, address@hidden wrote:

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Today's Topics:

1. Re: GNU Health (C?dric Krier)
2. Re: GNU Health (Robert Schilt)
3. Re: GNU Health (C?dric Krier)
4. Re: GNU Health (Maria Cecilia Santos Popper)
5. Re: GNU Health (C?dric Krier)
6. Re: GNU Health (David Bruchmann)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2015 08:37:08 +0200
From: C?dric Krier <address@hidden>
To: address@hidden
Subject: Re: [Health] GNU Health
Message-ID: <address@hidden>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

On 2015-06-16 09:31, Robert Schilt wrote:
I don't think so. We are looking at Biometrics for the purpose of uniquely
identifying patients. Not for staff to logon to the systems.


So why is something like Social Security Number not enough?
By the way, a party has a unique code assigned by the system for exactly
this purpose.

--
C?dric Krier - B2CK SPRL
Email/Jabber: address@hidden
Tel: +32 472 54 46 59
Website: http://www.b2ck.com/

------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2015 17:08:20 +1000
From: Robert Schilt <address@hidden>
To: General GNU Health discussion and help <address@hidden>
Subject: Re: [Health] GNU Health
Message-ID:
<CAMgMBdXkU7HQJ2vATCDrUHqdztQsB3HBzmAxdApU=address@hidden>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Thanks for your ideas and comments on this one.

Basically, there is no such thing as a social security number in PNG. The
government is currently trying to introduce a national ID card but is still
some years away. Furthermore, peoples names can change from visit to visit
(the concept of a fixed name is a very alien concept to many tribal folks
around the world - not only PNG). The concept of uniquely ID'ing a patient
easily is therefore a pre-req for any HIS in this part of the world.

If anyone on this forum has been faced with the same challenge we are open
to ideas.

On 16 June 2015 at 16:37, C?dric Krier <address@hidden> wrote:

On 2015-06-16 09:31, Robert Schilt wrote:
I don't think so. We are looking at Biometrics for the purpose of

uniquely
identifying patients. Not for staff to logon to the systems.


So why is something like Social Security Number not enough?
By the way, a party has a unique code assigned by the system for exactly
this purpose.

--
C?dric Krier - B2CK SPRL
Email/Jabber: address@hidden
Tel: +32 472 54 46 59
Website: http://www.b2ck.com/


--
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Message: 3
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2015 09:27:48 +0200
From: C?dric Krier <address@hidden>
To: address@hidden
Subject: Re: [Health] GNU Health
Message-ID: <address@hidden>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

On 2015-06-16 17:08, Robert Schilt wrote:
Thanks for your ideas and comments on this one.

Basically, there is no such thing as a social security number in PNG. The
government is currently trying to introduce a national ID card but is still
some years away. Furthermore, peoples names can change from visit to visit
(the concept of a fixed name is a very alien concept to many tribal folks
around the world - not only PNG). The concept of uniquely ID'ing a patient
easily is therefore a pre-req for any HIS in this part of the world.


If the government did not have one, why can't you manage one yourself?
You just have to give to the patient an ID card from the hospital. This
is far cheaper than having any biometric machinery and it will be far
better for privacy protection.

--
C?dric Krier - B2CK SPRL
Email/Jabber: address@hidden
Tel: +32 472 54 46 59
Website: http://www.b2ck.com/

------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2015 08:37:59 -0300
From: Maria Cecilia Santos Popper <address@hidden>
To: General GNU Health discussion and help <address@hidden>
Subject: Re: [Health] GNU Health
Message-ID:
<CAJU48=address@hidden>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Hi all!

On Tue, Jun 16, 2015 at 4:27 AM, C?dric Krier <address@hidden> wrote:

On 2015-06-16 17:08, Robert Schilt wrote:
Thanks for your ideas and comments on this one.

Basically, there is no such thing as a social security number in PNG. The
government is currently trying to introduce a national ID card but is

still
some years away. Furthermore, peoples names can change from visit to

visit
(the concept of a fixed name is a very alien concept to many tribal folks
around the world - not only PNG). The concept of uniquely ID'ing a

patient
easily is therefore a pre-req for any HIS in this part of the world.


If the government did not have one, why can't you manage one yourself?
You just have to give to the patient an ID card from the hospital. This
is far cheaper than having any biometric machinery and it will be far
better for privacy protection.

I think I see what Robert is trying to point: if the patient has no ID
number provided by the goverment, and because of cultural issues, patient
can change her name from visit to visit, then the only way to relate a
patient to GNUHealth's ID is by the means of biometrics.

Interesting situation!

--
C?dric Krier - B2CK SPRL
Email/Jabber: address@hidden
Tel: +32 472 54 46 59
Website: http://www.b2ck.com/


--
Lic. Cecilia Santos Popper
Santa Fe
www.linkedin.com/in/ceciliasp/
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Message: 5
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2015 15:23:35 +0200
From: C?dric Krier <address@hidden>
To: address@hidden
Subject: Re: [Health] GNU Health
Message-ID: <address@hidden>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

On 2015-06-16 08:37, Maria Cecilia Santos Popper wrote:
Hi all!

On Tue, Jun 16, 2015 at 4:27 AM, C?dric Krier <address@hidden> wrote:

On 2015-06-16 17:08, Robert Schilt wrote:
Thanks for your ideas and comments on this one.

Basically, there is no such thing as a social security number in PNG. The
government is currently trying to introduce a national ID card but is

still
some years away. Furthermore, peoples names can change from visit to

visit
(the concept of a fixed name is a very alien concept to many tribal folks
around the world - not only PNG). The concept of uniquely ID'ing a

patient
easily is therefore a pre-req for any HIS in this part of the world.


If the government did not have one, why can't you manage one yourself?
You just have to give to the patient an ID card from the hospital. This
is far cheaper than having any biometric machinery and it will be far
better for privacy protection.

I think I see what Robert is trying to point: if the patient has no ID
number provided by the goverment, and because of cultural issues, patient
can change her name from visit to visit, then the only way to relate a
patient to GNUHealth's ID is by the means of biometrics.


But why would a patient want to prevent you to find its medical records?

--
C?dric Krier - B2CK SPRL
Email/Jabber: address@hidden
Tel: +32 472 54 46 59
Website: http://www.b2ck.com/

------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2015 22:12:44 +0700
From: David Bruchmann <address@hidden>
To: General GNU Health discussion and help <address@hidden>
Subject: Re: [Health] GNU Health
Message-ID:
<address@hidden>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

But why would a patient want to prevent you to find its medical records?

There might be several reasons. Usually a patient goes to a clinic to get
one of these services (the list might be not complete):

1) Medical verification
2) Medical treatment
3) Medication
4) Paying
5) Claiming Government Support for payment
6) Claiming Insurance Support for Payment

Here are now a few examples where the patient might like to hide his known
identity:

1) Getting another verification (by another doctor perhaps) because he
never is satisfied with the existing ones.
2) Getting more Medication than he needs, for selling or "helping" someone
without required consultation
3) Getting a clean patient record concerning any invoices

Usually any way where is seen a real or supposed option to get something
desired is used.
It would be naive to think that self produced social numbers without
further identification really point to the right person and that they do it
only once.

Therefore the usage of biometrics perhaps never allows to get the real data
of a person but it grants that you always talk to the expected person.

Best Regards,
David
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