Re: M-TAB already used by KDE

[Kai Großjohann]

Fredrik Staxeng <fstx+u@update.uu.se> writes:

> kai.grossjohann@uni-duisburg.de (Kai Großjohann) writes:
>
>>I've written a little patch for Emacs (which will be in 21.4, whenever
>>that comes out) that allows you to tell Emacs to swap Alt and Meta.
>
> The default should be to treat them synonymously. 

Really?  Hm.  I've seen some Alt bindings here and there...

>>And also, I tell Emacs to swap Alt and Meta.
>
> And what Alt-bindings do you use in Emacs? Anything but iso-transl?

No, I don't use any alt bindings.  But it was very easy to swap them,
so that's what I did...

>>Then I can use the keys labeled Alt as Meta keys in Emacs.
>
> The proper way would be to have two settings, "Alt is really Super" and
> "Meta is really Super". 

Actually, there will be variables x-meta-keysym, x-alt-keysym,
x-hyper-keysym and x-super-keysym.  The value of each variable can be
meta, alt, hyper, or super.  Or nil.

The interpretation is as follows: if the x-hyper-keysym variable is
super, then Emacs will interpret Super_L and Super_R (are there two
such keys?) as Hyper internally.

I've never tried to see what happens if two variables have the same
value.  Maybe if x-alt-keysym and x-hyper-keysym are both `super',
then hitting Super-A will be interpreted as A-H-a.

-- 
~/.signature is: umop ap!sdn    (Frank Nobis)
>From help-gnu-emacs-bounces@gnu.org  Wed Dec 18 16:50:08 2002
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Subject: Re: M-TAB already used by KDE
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kai.grossjohann@uni-duisburg.de (Kai Großjohann) writes:

>Fredrik Staxeng <fstx+u@update.uu.se> writes:
>
>> kai.grossjohann@uni-duisburg.de (Kai Großjohann) writes:
>>
>>>I've written a little patch for Emacs (which will be in 21.4, whenever
>>>that comes out) that allows you to tell Emacs to swap Alt and Meta.
>>
>> The default should be to treat them synonymously. 
>
>Really?  Hm.  I've seen some Alt bindings here and there...

I have only seen iso-transl. But binding Alt instead of Meta assumes that
Alt is distinct from Meta. If you look at the reality of existing X
keyboard maps:

PC/101:     |Crtl|        |Alt | |    Space    | |Alt |              |Ctrl|
PC/104:     |Ctrl|  |Win| |Alt | |    Space    | |Alt | |Win| |Menu| |Ctrl|
Type 5:     |Ctrl|  |Alt| | <> | |    Space    | | <> | |Comp|       |AltGr|
Type 5/PC:  |Lock|  |Alt| | <> | |    Space    | | <> | |Comp|       |AltGr|

The <> key send Meta, and users of course expect it to works as a Meta
key in Emacs. The Alt key is distinct, and can be used for secondary 
functions. 

On the other hand, on the PC, it's best to use the Alt key for Meta
functions. It's there on all keyboards. It lets people freely move
between systems without rewiring their spinal cords. (If you assign
Meta to the Windows key, the ICCCM model breaks this. Of course, that
is exactly what the pc104 keymap did).

The best any program can do, is to use only one modifier, and make both
Alt and Meta invoke that modifier. Of course, there should be a way to
use the full capability of _any_ keyboard. But because of the historical
mistakes, it can't be done "out-of-the-box".


>> The proper way would be to have two settings, "Alt is really Super" and
>> "Meta is really Super". 
>
>Actually, there will be variables x-meta-keysym, x-alt-keysym,
>x-hyper-keysym and x-super-keysym.  The value of each variable can be
>meta, alt, hyper, or super.  Or nil.

If the default of x-meta-keysym is '(meta alt), then I am happy.
A minor quibble: I think that the x-alt-keysym is superfluous, 
and only serves to perpetrate the confusion.

>The interpretation is as follows: if the x-hyper-keysym variable is
>super, then Emacs will interpret Super_L and Super_R (are there two
>such keys?) as Hyper internally.

A Symbolics keyboard has two each of Control, Meta, Super, Hyper
and Symbol. I don't remember the LMI keyboard. These keyboards are 
not common enough to be relevant for the present discussion.

Of course, there is always the pressure to make Emacs conform to the
Windows keyboard bindings. The present discussion, and the existence
cua-mode proves this. Before moving in that direction, you should
realize that the Windows users won't be happy with Emacs until it
conforms fully. That is C-n means 'New File', create a new buffer
called "Untitled-n', and switch to it. Do it six times in a row, and you
are in "Untitled-6".

-- 
Fredrik Stax\"ang | rot13: sfgk@hcqngr.hh.fr
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Subject: Why can't I (message (propertize "hello" ...)) ?
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Is there some restriction that prevents me from using text properties
in messages that appear in the minibuffer? If so, does anyone know any
hacks to get around it? I know I can paste text with properties into
the minibuffer, so it can't be too serious...

Thanks a lot!

FYI, the code I'm trying is:

(defun x () "" (interactive)
(message (propertize "hello" 'face 'blue)))

.. which displays the message hello, but without any properties.
I've also tried imperatively updating the string with
add-text-properties, which also doesn't work.
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Subject: Windows steals my 'Alt-' (was Re: M-TAB already used by KDE)
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On Tue, 17 Dec 2002, Marcel Schmittfull wrote:

> >Perhaps you could use a different key for Meta in emacs.  I use the
> >"Windows" key for windowmanager functions, and the "Alt" key as Meta in
> >emacs.  If KDE doesn't allow you to change key bindings, perhaps some
> >jiggery-pokery in .emacs and/or with xmodmap would allow the change in
> >emacs. (Assuming you have a such a key available).
>
> Yes, I have the "windows" key on my keyboard. What would I have to
> write in my .emacs in order to use the "windows" key in the same
> meaning as the "Alt" key ? That is I want the "alt" key and the
> "windows" key to have both the same meaning in emacs, namely "Meta".

I have a similar issue --- I'm using Emacs in Windows XP via Exceed (that
is, Emacs is running on my login server; i'm using an XP terminal with
Exceed generating an X session), and Windows keeps grabbing the 'Alt' key
for the menubar, so i can't use it for a Meta.

How do I either:
  a)  Tell Emacs to interpret 'CapsLock' or something else as 'M-'?
      That is, I'd like to use something else as the modifier--- part of
      my problem here is that I don't know what codes Alt, [Win],
      CapsLock, etcetera, generate; but I also am not clear on how I'd use
      them once I had them.
  b)  Tell Windows not to use Alt key for menu activation? (less
      preferred; I can't take my windows settings with me between
      sessions--- long story)

thanks in advance
-- 
Jonathon Isaac Swiderski \\ dangercat-20@dangercat.net
cs.oberlin.edu/~jswiders  \\  www.dangercat.net/resume

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