Re: L4-HURD , POSIX, UNIX

[Leonardo Lopes Pereira]

On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 19:12:10 -0300 (ART)
Fortes Marcelo <address@hidden> wrote:

> > Message: 4
> > Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 20:15:38 +0100
> > From: Bas Wijnen <address@hidden>
> > Subject: Re: L4-HURD , POSIX, UNIX
> > To: address@hidden
> > Message-ID:
> > <address@hidden>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> > 
> > On Fri, Oct 28, 2005 at 03:29:16PM -0300, Fortes
> > Marcelo wrote:
> > > Well some of participant are fighting about the
> > design etc and be or not
> > > POSIX compliant. Etc.
> > 
> > I think we all agree that POSIX applications _must_
> > run on the Hurd.  There is
> > some discussion about it if it should be the native
> > interface, or it can be
> > something on top of it.  Personally, I think they
> > can be implemented in a
> > shared library, to which native Hurd applications
> > don't link.  "Transitional"
> > applications may link to it to use some parts, and
> > use parts from the native
> > system as well.  The library might become less
> > important when more programs
> > refrain from using it.
> 
> In Towards of New OS Design, The original HURD
> designer wrote that Unix look and feel and
> compatibility would be inplemented using the glib
> layer that i think is not too much diferent.

All that is said about POSIX on Towards of New OS Design is that POSIX calls 
will be handled by glibc, there is nothing more than that.

I will get a part of the original announcement of the GNU Project to explain 
what we want to do:
"GNU will be able to run Unix programs, but will not be identical to Unix.  We 
will make all improvements that are convenient, based on our experience with 
other operating systems."

We want an OS that runs Unix programs, but we do not want a OS with the same 
problems of Unix.

> Native Hurd applications that are not linked to POSIX
> layer are not a good idea becouse youre creting a
> problem that means native Hurd aplications will be
> hard to port to other *UX/*NIX-Like platforms.

There are two points of view here.
 1- Our goal is create GNU apps that run on a GNU system or create GNU apps 
that run on every system?
 2- How hard would be create an library to create a layer to run native GNU 
apps on POSIX systems?

> > 
> > > That is the obvious basis! an enviroinment that
> > GCC can compile with a
> > > minimum of changes Unix/GNU programs(bash, emacs,
> > X-Windows, pico, VI ).
> > > Off course extensions are necessary and obviously
> > the system should provide
> > > new features and enhancements that are not found
> > in other Unix Flavours but
> > > it is a secoundary step that a system with
> > multi-servers running in a top of
> > > a microkernel can do easely and a monolithic not.
> > So i reinforce the idea
> > > that you are working in a GNU Kernel. A Unix-Like
> > Kernel that can run Unix
> > > like softwares and have a Unix confortable
> > enviroinment that is the basis!
> > 
> > The improvements we are hoping to make are not
> > possible if POSIX is the base
> > of the system.  However, a POSIX library should be
> > no problem at all on the
> > system we currently have in mind.  Therefore it
> > seems like a good idea to me
> > to make POSIX _not_ the *base* of the system, but
> > more an extension.
> > 
> > > So Friends maybe my email can help to clarify a
> > bit and you can trust my
> > > intention is to be constructive, in a reflection
> > basis.
> > 
> > I appreciate your opinion, and hope that you agree
> > with me that POSIX doesn't
> > need to be the _basis_ of the system, but it must be
> > supported.
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > Bas
> > 
> 
> I do appreciate your opinion too and really thanks.
> But If the whole OS will be build on this basis its
> time to stop and say; "That is not more about HURD or
> the GNU OS, its about a entire new system that just
> provide suport to Unix-like applications".
It _IS_ about the _GNU OS_ and _HURD_, it is not about a entire new system that 
just provide suport to Unix-like applications.

We need to decide if we want a system that only run Unix-like apps, or want a 
system very powerful that also runs Unix-like apps, but will delay a GNU 
release in some more years.


> I suggest to people try to keep in mind Simple ideas,
> the features that a multiserver system can bring to an
> traditional system are obvious. The idea must be the
> most simply as possible. A Unix Clone with Unix/Posix
> compatibles multiservers running on top of a
> microkernel that dont necessarely knows what kind of
> OS flavours are runing on its top.

Keeping in mind simple ideas we will have a simple system wish simple concepts 
that noone will wanna use it, because others kernels like BSD and Linux will 
ever be ever a step ahead. I know that are some advantages in the use of a 
multiserver system, but they have more things working than us, and when we have 
a kernel as powerful as linux is today, they will have more new things that we 
will not have.

> There is the advantages of device drivers dont running
> inside the kernels and each server running protected
> each other and another great features that that
> architecture can offer.
Today, Mach's device driver is inside the kernel.

> I understand that a lot of Arcane principles of Unix
> that causes troubles of security failures must be
> avoided and thats right and are obvious! each system
> also must have your all extensions and facilitys.

> But if it is a compromisse with the GNU OS runing with a
> non Linux kernel the developers needs to remamber the
> basis, that is a UNIX Replacement.
Linux _IS NOT_ the kernel of GNU OS, so, we have no compromisse to run GNU on 
Linux.

More than an simple Unix Replacement project, GNU is a project to create a Free 
Operating System. Many GNU apps are not compatible with their respectives apps 
on Unix, why the kernel need to keep this compatibility?

> And Unix and your
> standards have proof for years your reability and
> robustness despite your architectural problems.
> For exemple MINIX 3.0 its a step towards this way 
> most of the system was rewrited and what Andrew
> Tannembaum did ? Put it most Unix/posix compliant than
> previous versions. But that is my opinion.And im not
> the project ruller or mantener but as user i think my
> opinion are important just emulate Unix with external
> librarys is not enough it must be in the basis most
> Unix compliant as possibly.

But the unix compatibility on GNU Hurd based only in a library.

> 
> Thanks Marcelo Fortes.
> 
> 
> 
>       
> 
> 
> 
>       
>               
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-- 
leonardolopespereira at gmail.com

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