Re: move from freenode

[quiliro]

Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:
> Kicking out of channel is not suppression of free speech. It is also
> not censorship. It is authority of channel operator to kick user out
> of the channel. It is private channel. Finished there. 

That it is private does not mean there is no suppression of speech.
Unvoicing, kicking and banning are supressing speech.  That we accept it
or not is another issue.

"Censorship is the suppression of speech, public communication, or other
information. This may be done on the basis that such material is
considered objectionable, harmful, sensitive, or "inconvenient."
Censorship can be conducted by governments, private institutions, and
other controlling bodies." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship

> I know it feels hard for you, but you have to take it from ground
> up. What is it where you participate? Aha, it is private company
> holding private servers.
>
> Who is paying for it? Do you know the payer? If you don't know the
> payer, please find out. 
>
> Are you paying for it? 
>
> Then you should know that people who pay for something are usually
> owners of whatever they pay. They are in charge. Facility is theirs.

If an injustice is commited because of who handles the money has the
power or allows it, that is no justification for an injustice.  If you
do not consider it an injustice is your prerogative, of course.  But
changing the name of something is usually the best way to make it look
acceptable and just.  Moderation is considered acceptable, but
censorship is not.  It is the same act with a different name used to
hide its real motivations.  The fact is that moderation is considered to
be good temper despite being censorship.

> Government is paying for roads but not for your garden and your
> swimming pool. You know what is for government and what is
> private. IRC is private. Swimming pool is private. You don't want bad
> behaving people on swimming pool. And you may get capricious and kick
> somebody out.

Everything affects everything else.  In the end appropriation of
anything does not have to do with ability to serve, but with ability to
trick.  If someone else thinks they should give up freedom or money or
rights, others will get the power, even if they do not deserve it.  So,
property does not reflect merit; it is theft.  This is the case
especially in land rights, other areas follow suit.

> Kicking people on IRC channel can be a joke, can be an event of
> capricious person. 
>
> An event caused by single channel operator should not be considered a
> policy of the IRC server. Most probably it is not related to each
> other. You can't complain to management.
>
> Then a channel operator could even be hired by IRC server and still
> doing some mistakes against their own policies. Complain to management
> in this case.

Thugs work in complicity, as good people do.  Complaining does not mean
justice will be in order.  It is a game of chance.  It depends on who is
in power.

>> I was writting about a bomb test dropped by the military in the ocean
>> that killed thousands of fish.  He said it was their freedom to do it in
>> line with my defense of freedom of speech.
>
> It can be. It is not censorship. Censorship is usually by
> government. It should be obvious that person is not government
> official.
>
> Channel operator is not necessarily moderator. 
>
> Take all factors in consideration.
>
> Do you know the channel? Just because of the name it does not mean it
> is right community for you personally. Just because of network like
> Freenode it also does not mean it is right community.
>
> What I would consider to be a "good channel":
>
> - Channel has a website
>
> - Website explains who are operators and what is the background of the
>   channel;
>
> - What kind of people are invited; what kind of topics are discussed;
>
> - What kind of policies are there in place or none;

Transparency is best, achieved by this method you propose.  But, in the
end, rules are used selectively based on the people who decide.
Consensus on decisions is the only true justice.  Disagreements and
impositions do not bring justice.  Power struggle is the alternative to
true justice.

>> Of course, this is not a policy of Freenode.  But it is a policy of
>> Freenode to tolerate this type of censorship by channel operators
>> against users.  Wether censors call themselves moderators, censors or
>> otherwise does not hide the suppression of speech.
>
> IRC is like that. Why should a server owner police what channel owner
> is doing? Imagine a hosting provider to read all the websites and take
> care of other people's relations? Come on. While it is possible, it is
> not feasible. 

It is possible to make it automatic: no bots, limit the number of words,
older users can speak more, etc.  Then, it will not become an imposition
of one person over another.  But it will be a standard which everyone
understands and does not require leaving personal political standing.

> What you speak censorship is maybe just personal capricious digital
> abuse. Far from any censorship. I understand the emotion, but you have
> to understand IRC in the first place. People are anonymous. You are
> dealing with their hidden character traits. What is hidden is coming
> up in open when they are anonymous, as that is where they feel no
> fear. It is psychological. 
>
> You are dealing with people's daemons.
>
> Look, I see that very simple. You enter channel, you don't know the
> rules, neither you know or have relation to some operators so you are
> guest. You better learn the people and find out what it is really
> about before anything.
>
> Finally, why all the effort? Just make your own channel, become
> operator and invite people you know to your own channel.

It is not that easy.  It is like saying Facebook can do whatever they
want.  Users can search other networks.  People should be empowered.
Mob should not limit individuals to express their positions in any way.
The mob already has much power without imposing censorship and cancel
culture.

It is great to exchange ideas with you.  You are a very intelligent and
generous person.  My mind has been enriched and I hope I have
collaborated a little with ideas also.