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Re: move from freenode

From: Jean Louis
Subject: Re: move from freenode
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2021 00:56:59 +0300
User-agent: Mutt/2.0.7+183 (3d24855) (2021-05-28)

* <> [2021-06-29 18:37]:
> Jean Louis <> writes:
> > Kicking out of channel is not suppression of free speech. It is also
> > not censorship. It is authority of channel operator to kick user out
> > of the channel. It is private channel. Finished there. 
> That it is private does not mean there is no suppression of speech.
> Unvoicing, kicking and banning are supressing speech.  That we accept it
> or not is another issue.

When somebody kicks you out of the channel it is suppression of
speech. It may be rude, not appropriate, etc.

But your human rights to free speech has not been suppressed as you
have not get free speech rights in private environments. By entering
the channel or IRC server you have already accepted the terms. Most of
people don't really consciously accept it, or read it even. I
know. Still they will be used as protection for the owners.

Article referring to subject:

Now, if public official would be using the IRC then somebody kicking
you out would be illegitimate abuse of your rights. 

This way you get only the "legitimate" abuse of your free speech
desire. It is not nice, but I don't think it is abuse of your legal

> If an injustice is commited because of who handles the money has the
> power or allows it, that is no justification for an injustice.

We don't have perfect world.

> If you do not consider it an injustice is your prerogative, of
> course.

When channel operator kicks you out, and it is against some server's
policies you may complain to server administrator, however, if there
is no policy you may expect anything to happen. IRC was always like
that, I would like it stays that way. ⮚⮚⮚ Wild ⮘⮘⮘

Just make your own channel.

> But changing the name of something is usually the best way to make
> it look acceptable and just.  Moderation is considered acceptable,
> but censorship is not.

There are definitely differences, those terms are not synonyms.

> Thugs work in complicity, as good people do.  Complaining does not
> mean justice will be in order.  It is a game of chance.  It depends
> on who is in power.

That is what I said. If somebody else is in power, you are submitting
to their power by entering the channel or IRC server. It is better you
are aware of it and take it easy. IRC is much more wild than what you
experienced. Try other servers.

> Transparency is best, achieved by this method you propose.  But, in
> the end, rules are used selectively based on the people who decide.
> Consensus on decisions is the only true justice.  Disagreements and
> impositions do not bring justice.  Power struggle is the alternative
> to true justice.

It is hard to seek justice as a guest in other people's
environment. It is other persons' place. Not really public place. 

That is why channels have various features, they could be invite only,
there are operators, etc. And you can make your own channels free of
charge. Great.

IRC is not a place to seek civilization norms. Really not. That is why
it is cool, I can understand you may not like it. I hope it will last
long time. It is interestin that way. 

In other words you may find on IRC exemplary idiots, jerks, imbeciles,
the true nature of psychopaths and sociopaths. Meet the true real
civilization as how it is without constraints, without boundaries.

There are various IRC ettiquette rules, like first wait and see who is
who, etc. 

Here is list of things not cool:

> It is possible to make it automatic: no bots, limit the number of words,
> older users can speak more, etc.  Then, it will not become an imposition
> of one person over another.  But it will be a standard which everyone
> understands and does not require leaving personal political
> standing.

Your particular case is pretty rare on Freenode. You entered the
channel for vegans while Freenode is more for free software. I guess
in such a channel you will find weirdness. By the way, the nick has
the Eastern European name. There is difference in culture in Eastern
Europe and Western. We know in Europe what we expect in Eastern Europe
and what we expect in Western Europe.

As example, cursing in Eastern Europe could be said to be life
endangering activity, while in Western Europe one would most probably
not get closely the reaction what one gets in Eastern Europe. Racism
and nationalism is there so much more in Eastern Europe than in
Western Europe.

Best is to solve the issue with the person. And if you see there is no
recourse, make your own channel.

> > Look, I see that very simple. You enter channel, you don't know the
> > rules, neither you know or have relation to some operators so you are
> > guest. You better learn the people and find out what it is really
> > about before anything.
> >
> > Finally, why all the effort? Just make your own channel, become
> > operator and invite people you know to your own channel.
> It is not that easy.  It is like saying Facebook can do whatever they
> want.


On Fakebook you don't have control over what you write on other
people's timelines. Anything you write may be deleted or suppressed by
the timeline owner.

Your case is not about server's administrator, or admin action. It is
about channel owner action. It is private as the Fakebook timeline.

> Users can search other networks.

You can do as well on IRC. It is not related to private channel.

> People should be empowered.

No. Purpose of IRC is not to empower people, not in some special
manner, it is to make people communicate. Communication empowers
people. But that is not what you mean.

> Mob should not limit individuals to express their positions in any
> way.

Your case was not a mob. It was individual that kicked you out. If me
and you now start protesting there in the channel, we become mob.

> The mob already has much power without imposing censorship and cancel
> culture.

Actually it is never "mob" in digital world. There are always actors
and leaders and initiators who move the mob. Cattle does not move
alone, there must be shepard somewhere.


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