Re: Fwd: Music Glossary - 1.64 Concert Pitch

[Paul Scott]

On 07/07/2010 04:06 PM, Wols Lists wrote:
> On 07/07/10 19:06, Paul Scott wrote:
> > On Tue, Jul 06, 2010 at 11:54:29AM +0100, Wols Lists wrote:
> >
> > >   quote:
> > >
> > > The trombones are a special case: although they are said to be 'in F'
> > > (alto or bass) or 'in B-flat' (tenor), this refers to their fundamental
> > > note, not to their parts' transposition. (In fact, the trombones' parts
> > > are written at concert pitch with an appropriate clef -- alto, tenor or
> > > bass.) This differs from other instruments 'in F', 'in B-flat', and so
> > > on, which are transposing instruments.
> > At least in modern American music this applies to all brass music written
> > in bass clef as well as bassoon.  All parts are written as if they were C
> > instruments.  If you play a C tuba you use different "valvings" when you see
> > a note than you do if you are playing a Bb tuba.  Bassoon could also be 
> > considered
> > an F instrument but it's written as if it were a C instrument.
>
> Actually, I thought that was NOT true!

I'm sure it's true for normal band music.  I just rewrote a trombone 
part for tenor sax and I added 2 sharps and raised each pitch a ninth. 
Another example is dance/jazz/swing band music.  All bass clef music is 
written in concert pitch.  In particular the 4th trombone parts are 
usually played by a bass trombonist but the music is written the same as 
the other trombone parts.  I can then read any of those parts on 
baritone (or alto) sax just by adding 3 sharps and pretending the clef 
is treble.

> I might be mistaken (the music
> might have been written with accidentals but no key signature -
> certainly it confused the hell out of me!)

That's just some modern music which is composed that way (none of the 
parts have key signatures) contrasted with orchestral horn music which 
is usually written without key signatures.

> but I'm sure I've had some
> American band music put in front of me that (a) was in bass clef and (b)
> was transposed in Bf!

Could be but I've never seen it.  OTOH there are European orchestral 
bass clarinet parts which are written exactly that way.

> > > Okay. Let's try and rewrite both of them:
> > >
> > > Transposing instruments:
> > >
> > > Instruments whose notated pitch is different from their sounded pitch.
> > > They usually come in families which differ only in their fundamental
> > > pitch (the base note determined by the length of the instrument from
> > > mouthpiece to bell).
> > This certainly *not* true for woodwinds.  A "C" flute may have a C foot or
> > a B foot.  An Eb baritone saxophone may go to low Bb or low A,
> I thin we've had this discussion here before ... but as you have
> correctly said I'm a trombone player, not woodwind. The lowest note on a
> brass instrument has a half-wavelength equal to the length of the
> instrument. I get the impression that the lowest note on many woodwind
> instruments has a quarter-wavelength equal to the length of the
> instrument. At the end of the day, I was trying to get across the fact
> that the note depends on the length of the instrument - hence
> "determined by the length" rather than explicitly drawing any
> relationship.

That works for me!

> So that explains your point about an Eb sax going to Bb or
> A - the lowest note on a woodwind is typically a harmonic of the
> fundamental rather than an octave of it (that funny 1/4 or 3/4
> relationship).

The lowest note on a woodwind is a fundamental.  It's just not directly 
related to how the key of the instrument is determined.  All woodwinds 
except the bassoon have a six finger notes in one of it's registers 
(harmonics) that is named D and usually written on the fourth line of 
the treble clef.

> I don't know what you mean by a "foot". Is that where you have eg a C
> flute, and by replacing the foot with a longer one you convert it to a B
> instrument?

No.  It's still a C instrument.  Making an instrument longer like that 
would be directly analogous to what happens when you move the slide on 
your Bb trombone and make the instrument a little longer.  It's still a 
Bb trombone.

> Like you change the pitch of a horn by changing its crook?
> If that's the case, my definition still holds - changing the foot
> changes the length, and therefore changes the fundamental. I'd call a
> flute like that a C/B flute, just like my trombone is a Bf/F - using the
> trigger adds extra tubing to change the fundamental (though like so much
> with instruments, I'd call that on the trombone a cheat - you don't call
> a four-valve euph a Bf/F!).

But on woodwinds we can't change the fundamental that way.  We would 
have to rebuild the instrument with the holes and keys moved 
proportionally to the added length.

> The thing I really wanted to get away from is the implication that the
> instrument is named after the transposing note, whereas reality is that
> the transposing note is chosen based on the fundamentals of the
> instrument - as written it implies the effect is responsible for the
> cause ...

I think essentially that is true for brass instruments and not true the 
same way for woodwinds.  Strings are maybe in between.

> > > Except for those whose notated and sounding pitches
> > > differ by one or more octaves (to reduce the number of ledger lines
> > > needed), most such instruments are identified by the letter name of the
> > > pitch class of their fundamental. This is the note which is written as C
> > > when music is transposed.
> > >
> > > Trombones are a special case as the bass trombone is never transposed,
> > Can you explain this?  I realize you are a trombone player but this makes
> > no sense to me.
> I know it sounds funny, but - from my own knowledge ...
>
> The trombone (along with the violin) is one of the oldest modern
> instruments in its current form - the basic design hasn't changed since
> the sackbut of the 1500s. And unlike the horn or trumpet of that era
> (which achieved chromaticity by changing a crook) the trombone was fully
> chromatic in its basic configuration, so it was written in standard
> pitch while the other instruments were written in what I call tablature
> - where the note indicates fingering not pitch - ie a typical modern
> transposed part :-)
>
> Then from wikipedia ...
>
> About 1900, the decision was made, in the British brass band world, to
> transpose the tenor trombone just like all the other brass instruments
> because tenor clef concert and treble clef Bf just happened (accidentals
> apart) to place the same note in the same place on the staff. This made
> it easier for arrangers, and for players switching between the trombone
> and other instruments. The true bass trombone - a G instrument, still
> popular at the time - stayed notated in bass clef. (The modern bass
> trombone is actually a variant of the Bf tenor - the German "tenorbass"
> instrument.)
>
>
> My experience as a young trombone player probably isn't atypical - I
> learnt my music craft on the cornet (Bf treble clef) in a brass band,
> switched to the trombone (again Bf treble clef), switched to playing in
> orchestras and had to learn bass clef concert, expanded my range and
> learnt tenor clef concert (as I said above, dead easy once you
> remembered the accidentals!), and then playing with a music ensemble
> found myself learning treble clef concert as well! The one typical
> trombone clef I can't do is alto. I now prefer playing in bass clef, and
> when playing in a concert band and I have a choice of clef, that's what
> I choose. When playing in a brass band, I play treble just like everyone
> else ... :-)

Many American brass players jokingly look down upon those who did what 
you did at first and don't learn to read bass clef.  It is typical to 
give a trumpet player a baritone horn and treble clef music and all s/he 
has to do is change his/her embouchure.

Cheers,

Paul