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Re: flags, beams and stem length in forced directions - output improveme

From: Carl Sorensen
Subject: Re: flags, beams and stem length in forced directions - output improvement
Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2010 21:33:41 -0700

On 12/29/10 4:32 PM, "Janek Warchoł" <address@hidden>

> 2010/12/29 Carl Sorensen <address@hidden>:
>> In such a case, there are different standards, we apply both, with a
>> variable to choose between the different behaviors.  That's why we have
>> different accidental behaviors.
> And that's very good indeed! But still one of these behaviours is the
> default one, and the default one will always be the dominant one.
> Look: so many people don't care to correct even the most basic and
> hideous Finale mistakes! I don't believe they will care to change any
> of LilyPond's defaults if they use LilyPond.
>>> LilyPond rarely puts the beam parallel to
>>> the noteheads.
>> LilyPond follows the recommended practice in Stone (IIRC).  And I prefer
>> LilyPond's beam to any of those in the example you've pointed to
>> [in ].
> Ok, you are right that LilyPond is not exactly like the one labeled
> "recommended".
> And yeah, i like the LilyPond version the most too :)
>>> This leads me to another related question i was going to ask. Look at
>>> the attachment and tell me which line looks best for you? (i'm asking
>>> this question to anyone who is still following this thread - by the
>>> way, is there anyone else? :) )
>> I like A the least.
> Me too :)
>> I'm ambivalent between B and C.  Either one looks fine to me.
> I like C best, because the ends of the stems are clearly on different
> levels (in my opinion the differencies in B are a little too small).
> Also the stems on e and its neighbors look more balanced in my
> opinion.
>> I'm afraid that C would greatly complicate the engraver, requiring a look at
>> a lot of notes ahead and behind the current note, and that the benefit of
>> doing that would not be worth the cost.
> Fortunately that is not the case :)
> C is made with a simple rule: each stem after "a" is 1/6 space
> shorter, until they reach 2.5 space length. See the following code
> that i used to make C:
> \voiceOne
> % \override Stem #'length = #7 (this one is redundant)
> a'4
> \override Stem #'length = #6.66
> b'4
> \override Stem #'length = #6.33
> c''4
> \override Stem #'length = #6
> d''4
> \override Stem #'length = #5.66
> e''4
> \override Stem #'length = #5.33
> f''4
> \override Stem #'length = #5
> g''4
> I think this is the best that we can find. The transition is smooth,
> the stems are balanced, and the lengths doesn't depend on neighbor
> notes so the rule is simple.

I think I agree, but this rule does not agree with the engraving books.  So
if we go this way we're breaking new ground.  That makes me nervous.  I
certainly wouldn't want to do this without get agreement from a larger
number of the core developers.

> Ok, here is my penultimate question in this topic:
> Should the stems of the 8th and 16th notes be longer than the stems of
> the unflagged ones, and how much longer?
> Currently they are 0.5 spaces longer, and this in my opinion leads to
> unsatysfying results, see attachment1 (the quarter "a" is a higher
> note than 8th and 16th "g" but it's stem ends on the same level as "g"
> flagged stems).
> In my opinion the difference should not be greater than 0.25 spaces.
> I see three possible solutions, see attachment2:
> (A) don't make any difference between 8th, 16th and unflagged notes
> (B) make the stem of the 8th notes the same length as unflagged stems,
> but the stem of the 16th notes 0.25 space longer
> (C) make the stem of the 8th and 16th notes 0.25 space longer than
> unflagged stems.
> I prefer B because it is the most balanced one - the 16ths don't look
> cramped, and the 8ths don't look 'airy' when compared to 16ths
> (especially the beamed variant. I think that beamed and flagged stems
> of the same rhythmic values should have the same length, unlike the
> current LilyPond behaviour).

I don't like the fact that the beam on the 8th notes lies at the same level
as the space between the beams on the 16th notes in B.  That seems wrong to

Before we junk the existing engraving rules, I want to be sure that we have
a *very* good reason for doing it.  I will grant you that flags were stamps,
and they couldn't easily have lots of different flags.  But stems were
engraved, and could be engraved to any desired length.



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