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Re: Terminology of baseMoment, beats, groups

From: Urs Liska
Subject: Re: Terminology of baseMoment, beats, groups
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2017 13:39:12 +0100
User-agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.4.0

Am 11.11.2017 um 13:15 schrieb David Kastrup:
Urs Liska <address@hidden> writes:

Am 11.11.2017 um 12:30 schrieb David Kastrup:
I find "grouping" without "beat" fine.  I could have been responsible
for the terminology in the code (pretty sure I wasn't, but it matches
the terminology I use quite better).

Now I have certainly not gotten an English music education, so can
someone who did chime in?
I haven't either, but I can refer to Gould's terminology. While we all
agree that no single engraving book provides "the truth", it is surely
a good idea to match her terminology, if only to be able to
communicate with users/developers of other programs.

She says: "Divisions of a beat are beamed together in all metres." and
states 2/4, 6/8, and 2/2 as metres of 2 beats. (p. 153, "Beaming
according to the metre")
I'd be interested in her take on the terminology for uneven
subdivisions, like the 3+3+2 used these days in tango.

Unfortunately she doesn't explicitly uses *words* for this kind of metres ...

3/2, and 9/16 are given as examples of metres of 3 beats.

So it's clear that her terminology matches that of beatStructure,
"beat" = "beat" and "baseMoment" = "Division of a beat".

The example I gave is also present in her examples (p. 155), other
examples of metres with beats of different lengths include 5/16 (2+3
or 3+2) and 7/8.
Ah, ok.

... but this can implicitly be taken as a confirmation that she also considers irregular groupings as "beats".

So I think we can safely say the terminology of beatStructure is
correct (or at least acceptable).

"Beat" also refers to what a conductor would do. the 3+3+2 from my
example would be given as three "beats" by the conductor. Maybe your
perception of "beat" as necessarily regular comes from the fact that
in German we use "beat" too, but usually referring to specific styles
that are limited to regular beats ...
I actually perform quite a bit in 4/4 with a basic rhythm of { 4. 4. 4
}, but I've never heard anybody refer to the last quarter as the "third
beat" when directing musicians where to start.

Of course I don't really know what kind of music you are referring to, but I have the impression that you mean 2/2 music that is actually in two beats, and the grouping is not a metric, but a rhythmic issue.

If you have music like the examples given in I can tell you that orchestra musicians and conductors would refer to that as beats. E.g. "The a' on the fourth beat of the second 9/8 measure".

Here comes another inconsistency, now within one NR page. This section states that the measure_grouping_engraver creates signs for groups that are created from beatStructure, i.e. from the "beats" in the beatStructure ...

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